[Archive] -1Ld but Immune to Fear?

Grimstonefire:

An idea we’ve been playing round with over at the Forge of Hashut is making all Chaos Dwarfs Immune to Fear, but most would be -1Ld as well.

Heroes and Lords would be as Dwarf equivalent, but +5pts/ +10pts.

Warriors would work out at 9pts per model (1 more than Dwarf equivalent, as an example).

All other units would be +1pt/ model if -1Ld, or +2pts/ model if kept at Ld9.

What do you think in principle as an army trait?

Fluffwise I think it could be worked out.  Rules unbalancing is a potential issue, but then some of the 7th Ed army traits are seriously hard at first glance (ASF for instance).

Hashut’s Blessing:

I was going to say Immune to Fear army wide is a bit OP, but considering ASF, Eternal Hatred etc, I think it’s not so bad. However, (other than ASF) the army rules tend to be re-rolls: Eternal Hatred is re-roll to hit in first round, Will of the Gods is re-roll Panic tests. Therefore, mayhaps have re-roll Fear tests instead?

Servius:

Hrm, Immunity to Fear seems a Bit Strong… and saying well they are at -1 leadership and cost a point more wouldn’t make up for this gain by a long shot. I understand the Idea. +2 points per model for Immunity to fear and -1 point for -1 Ld… so 9 Points… but really. You just made the army ignore one of the chief reasons you’re taking leadership tests in the first place… Its like playing Vampire The Masquerade and saying hey… My skin is immune to Small Arms Fire but I can’t wear more than Light Leather!.

The idea of a -1 Leadership is good… Not because they would be more scared but simply because Chaos Dwarfs more rebellious than standard dwarfs and are less likely to simply follow orders to the letter in my opinion. I think Reroll Psychology would be ok… But even this I think this would raise the price on the Average dwarf even with the LD Drop, but would be more fitting for 9 points… though would be insane good for 9… … Something like HB’s suggestion of Reroll Fear would fit your 9 Point Bracket… if you kept the Leadership the Same. And could lower the price by 1 if you dropped a LD. Make the Immunity to fear a Banner or a special for Immortals… but not base core.

Thommy H:

Why the obsession with altering stats all the time, Grim? If all Elves have the same profile, I don’t understand why all Dwarfs can’t have the same one too.

I don’t see any justification for either modification. Chaos Dwarfs are not more rebellious than regular Dwarfs, so -1 Ld doesn’t fit, and if Chaos Warriors aren’t immune to fear then it would be pretty hard to justify for Chaos Dwarfs. I know you can justify anything, but what does being immune to fear actually add to the army? ASF changes the way High Elves play - immunity to fear just grants a pretty random bonus. I don’t see the point of going to the effort of justifying something that doesn’t add to the character of the army or create a very interesting play-style (remember, the high Ld of Dwarfs means they’re already pretty nonchalant about psychology).

Now, immune to panic would be a bit more interesting, because that’s a more general psychological effect and actually does reflect the discipline of the troops. I would also say it’s more consistent than immunity to fear (how does terror effect them, anyway?) and has more precedent in existing rules. Being immune to panic feels like a better rule than immune to fear, which is just plucked out of the air and doesn’t really make much sense.

But leave the stats alone. There’s no need for them to be less like regular Dwarfs.

Obsidian:

I kinda agree with Thommy here. Stat altering is dangerous Imho. The Elves comparisson is a good example of why the stats should remain the same, they’re still Dwarfs to an extent…

Unit specific rules would be good, an army rule to an extent too but not if it unbalanceses things…

Thommy H:

I assume they’d actually have an army rule already - Relentless. Back when that was first introduced for Dwarfs, Gav’s designers notes talked about how it was a risky rule to implement because it ignored one of the game’s basic rules. Pretty much like ASF, really. Relentless is actually a pretty major rule, we’re all just used to it now.

Grimstonefire:

Why the obsession with altering stats all the time, Grim? If all Elves have the same profile, I don't understand why all Dwarfs can't have the same one too.

Thommy H
My theory is that if you come up with loads of ideas the chances are that some of them will be good! :cheers

HE and DE may have exactly the same profile, but even core level ones play differently to their counterparts in 7th ed.  What would the difference be between CD and Dwarf warriors?  Can this change be achieved without playing around with the stats?

Any rules over and above what is free to add on must be paid for somehow, or the base points cost becomes too high.

If re-roll of fear tests is more balanced rules wise then that is what I will propose over at the forge. So it would be:
8pts/ model with Ld8
9pts/ model with Ld9

Thommy H:

It doesn’t always require special rules to make something play differently. Chaos Dwarf Warriors, in the current list, have a very different role than Dwarf Warriors in a Dwarf army because of the other units they work with in the list.

But I still don’t understand why they should be less prone to fear than any other models. What do they see or do that makes them resistant to it, but not to panic or terror? Why do they scoff at a Dryad, but still might run away when a quarter of them get cut down by bow fire? It doesn’t seem to make sense to me - fear isn’t a specific enough thing to be immune to (background wise).

If they’re going to be immune/resistant to any psychological effect, it should be panic. Again, there is precedent for this in other lists - immune to panic is the first step towards immune to psychology. But I’m not aware of any other models that are simply immune to fear, without also being immune to panic or terror.

Here’s what I would suggest:

Characters are immune to panic, and pass this on to any Chaos Dwarf unit they lead (so not slaves, if this hypothetical army list includes any). Make it a feature of the army based on their unwavering loyalty to their leaders rather than just a random bonus. If you really want some variation in stats, make Warriors Ld 8 basic, with an option to upgrade to Ld 9 if they’re “City Guard” or something (or, alternatively, make the Ld 8 guys the basic militia raised from the civilian population). This gets across the idea that all Chaos Dwarfs are expected to go to war, even those that might not be so well trained.

Baggronor:

Being LD 9 basic is part of being a dwarf; they’re always like that, its their racial characteristic to be extremely stubborn and committed. I really don’t think this should be messed with, its part of who they are, Chaos Dwarf or not.

Any Army wide rule should be grounded in their fluff and the way they play. eg. Dark Elves have hatred because they are massively spiteful and give themselves over to their heightened elven emotions completely. High Elves have ASF…erm…coz they like to cheat and always have done :slight_smile: no, coz they play defensively and their elite infantry suffered terribly without something to make them worthwhile. Orcs have Waaaagh as they are unpredictable volatile nutters. WoC have Will of Chaos because panic really screws them over, being an all combat army with slightly suspect Ld.

Chaos Dwarfs need something to underline how they fight and why, and at the moment I think this is missing. This would be decided by what is actually in the list (eg Greenskins or not? If yes, then something to emphasise the slavery aspect: Greenskins within 6" of any CD hero re-roll failed animosity and CD immune to greenskin panic, if no greenies then they need a new angle). I also really don’t think having an entire army that is immune to fear and otherwise normal (ie not a crumbling type army, not immune to psych) is a good idea, its just too good. Passing Ld tests is half the point of being Ld9 after all. I also don’t really see why they would be immune to panic. What aspect of their character/culture does it reflect? Also, being Immune to panic is just better than the Will of Chaos rule, which doesn’t make much sense either.

Examining the yin yang relationship of the Elf armies might give some more ideas, as in looking at how Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs would fight. Given the Dwarfs extreme resistance to magic, its tempting to suggest some kind of magic bonus for Chaos Dwarfs (selling their souls and taking on the sorcerer’s curse has to be worth something after all). Maybe even a starting pool of 4 power dice :o but a spell lore that isn’t just zapping, something with augmenting spells like giving your units stone skin or white hot weapons for a turn or causing eruptions and earthquakes, movement impairing spells etc.

Thommy H:

I also don't really see why they would be immune to panic. What aspect of their character/culture does it reflect? Also, being Immune to panic is just better than the Will of Chaos rule, which doesn't make much sense either.
In the rules I'm currently throwing around, only the characters are immune to panic, which is extended to any unit they join. My current name for the rule is "Bondage of Hashut", with the logic being that it's the "ties of blood-loyalty which all Chaos Dwarfs deem unbreakable". So it's not just an army-wide rule, but something related to the leaders of the race and their rigid social structure.

That's just my take on things though. Another way to make Chaos Dwarf Warriors distinct from their western cousins might be to give them Chaos Armour (or whatever you're calling armour that gives a 4+ save) as standard.

Baggronor:

That's just my take on things though. Another way to make Chaos Dwarf Warriors distinct from their western cousins might be to give them Chaos Armour (or whatever you're calling armour that gives a 4+ save) as standard.
:o Thats a bit hard isn't it? Ironbreakers are a Special choice for Dwarfs. Core troops with 2+ save? Unless they didn't use shields and went for great weapons for a more aggressive style?

Thommy H:

Well that’s the point - plus there’s nothing inherently wrong with having Core choices that would be Special in other armies (compare Chaos Warriors to…anything). They also wouldn’t have any stat increases (Ironbreakers are WS5, S4), but just be normal Dwarfs in Chaos Armour.

Just another random idea anyway. It’s a simple way to make them play a bit differently.

Hashut’s Blessing:

I’d say no 4+ basic save for us as that’s not in keeping with us and is reserved for being something special about Chaos armies. Also, they have it to ensure they get into combat, where there strength lies.

As for Immunity to Panic, that’s incredibly strange to say wehn you say Immunity to Fear is bad. Why would we be less effected by panicking than Chaos Warriors? Also, it’s more powerful because it comes into effect more.

-1Ld is fine by me for heroes. Same stats across the board as Dwarf characters and heroes.

Maybe something like greenskins (friendly ones) within 6" of a CD unit can re-roll animosity?

Thommy H:

Why would we be less effected by panicking than Chaos Warriors?
Why would they be less effected by fear either? I was just saying that immune to panic is better than immune to fear.

Hashut’s Blessing:

I was playing off the presented idea :wink: The fact it’s better than immune to fear is partly why it’s too overpowered, lol. Just my opinion, anyway.

Thommy H:

No, you misunderstand - it’s not “better” as in “more powerful”, it’s “better” as in “makes more sense and has some precedent in other armies”.

Being immune to fear is problematic because you have to explain why someone wouldn’t be scared of Dryads, but would be scared of having a quarter of their friends killed. Why be immune to just fear? It’s just totally random. But the ability to ignore panic is something that other units have (to varying degrees - for example, ignoring certain types of friendly models for panic) so it makes a bit of sense.

So if Chaos Dwarfs are going to be immune to anything, it should be panic rather than fear.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Ah, I took it to be MEANT ambiguously and I didn;t disagree with it fitting better.

As I said, I only suggested re-rolling fear as a fairer alternative progression from immunity to fear.

Immunity to the effects of panic caused by greenskins is already in effect, so I think it’s unnecessary to negate other panic-causing. Hence my suggestion for allowing greenskins to re-roll animosity. they’ve been whipped into shape and are scared of what the CDs will do if they are not doing as told, but it’s still in their nature to squablle to some extent.

Thommy H:

Well it depends on whether the list Grim is talking about even includes any Greenskins. I think it’s probably a given that any future Chaos Dwarf list won’t contain units from the Orcs and Goblins army and, furthermore, that they won’t use identical Animosity rules (like how Gnoblars don’t use the same table). Ergo, any new special rule probably shouldn’t depend on Animosity.

Grimstonefire:

@Thommy

We currently have a unit of mounted hobgoblins (only) in core. So their animosity would be more like gnoblars.

Thommy H:

Interesting. My “vision” (such as it is), puts mounted Hobgoblins (if any) in Special, with fluff describing them as mercenaries from the steppes. Conversely, Core would include a unit of generic “Slaves” (WS and BS 2, Ld 5) which may or may not be Greenskins (the idea is to make it a unit people can model how they like).

I probably won’t give the “Slaves” animosity in any recognisable form, but I guess the riders would get something, since they are Greenskins.

This is why a universal rule involving animosity doesn’t appeal to me anyway. Things like that are going to depend hugely on how the rest of the list works, and exactly how Chaos Dwarfs are depicted. Personally, I don’t think they need a universal rule at all - it’s not compulsory.