[Archive] 2000pt LoA - How to include fireborn effectively

Archive [Archive] Army Lists
1

Mr Saturday:

I’m starting to build a 2,500 point LoA army, but I also need a working 2000 point list. I’m eager to include six fireborn as well as a destroyer at 2000 points, and I’m having a lot of trouble building an a decent list. I’m thinking a block of 25 IG with HW/S and 10 IG with fireglaives form the core. a lvl4 prophet, BSB and daemonsmith, and after that, it’s up for grabs. Any advice is most appreciated, I’m a bit stumped.

2

thewizardofoz:

I'm starting to build a 2,500 point LoA army, but I also need a working 2000 point list. I'm eager to include six fireborn as well as a destroyer at 2000 points, and I'm having a lot of trouble building an a decent list. I'm thinking a block of 25 IG with HW/S and 10 IG with fireglaives form the core. a lvl4 prophet, BSB and daemonsmith, and after that, it's up for grabs. Any advice is most appreciated, I'm a bit stumped.

Mr Saturday
I ran 5 fireborn at a tourney last weekend and they were very effective at holding units up - (took a charge from 2 units of warlocs and a hero on Pegasus and kept them for 2 rounds of combat). 5 at 275pts is justifiable as a shield but 6, I think you're wasting precious points.

On the offensive, they were awesome at supporting the Kdaii Destroyer and the 2 units in combats were horrible - last week at my club they just went through units of tomb kings like a knife through butter.

I usually run my blocks of dwarfs behind them, if the Kdaiis can deal with it then great, anything that has gotten through those units can easily be mopped up with IG.

The only inclusion I would make to my list is some Bull Centaurs to flank once the Fireborn have them held and locked in combat - That would be sweet.
3

Mr Saturday:

I’m thinking of running the fireborn and destroyer as mutual support units on one flank, with the destroyer at the extreme flank. Bull Centaurs sounds good, but pointswise at 2000 I’ll be running out before I add any war machines or magic items. Hence the dilemma.

4

Baggronor:

6 is the minimum I would take. 8 is my standard. Love 'em, they’re great. Just try to get them into infantry, stay clear of enemies with good armour saves or poison.

5

Yodrin:

I tried 9 fireborns a couple of days ago, and they worked great!!!

6

Mr Saturday:

I think six is the maximum I could field in a 2000 point army. My real problem is what else to put in the force. Fitting in war machines and heroes with decent items seems the most difficult area.

7

Mr Saturday:

Here’s my list right now. The big problem, NO chaff.

   1 Dark Castellean (Battle Standard Bearer), 130 pts = (base cost 105 + Battle Standard Bearer 25)
      1 The Mask of the Furnace, 65 pts
      1 Luckstone, 5 pts
      1 Ironcurse Icon, 5 pts

   1 Sorcerer-Prophet, 320 pts = (base cost 265 + Level 4 Upgrade 35 + The Blood of Hashut 20)
      1 Enchanted Shield, 5 pts
      1 Talisman of Preservation, 45 pts

   23 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, 296 pts = 22 * 12 (base cost 12) + Musician Mus 10 + Standard Bearer Std 10
      1 Deathmask, 24 pts
      1 Gleaming Pennant, 5 pts

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard (10#, 180 pts)
   10 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, 190 pts = 10 * 17 (base cost 12 + Fireglaive 5) + Musician Mus 10

Daemonsmith Sorcerer (1#, 120 pts)
   1 Daemonsmith Sorcerer, 95 pts
      1 Dispel Scroll, 25 pts

1 Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon, 145 pts

K’daai Destroyer (1#, 325 pts)

K’daai Fireborn (6#, 330 pts)

8

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I don’t see why you need two wizards. I’d consider getting rid of one and that’d be the Sorcerer-Prophet.

9

Mr Saturday:

You’d drop the prophet? Interesting. You don’t rate having a lvl 4 caster, and the added magical defence?

10

TheFNG:

If I may, I think that your lvl 4 is a keeper, though I’d swap some gear. I would drop your lvl 2 though.

The lvl 4 could be Mask of the Furnace and Dawnstone. Then plop him behind 2 warmachines. Now he functions as your engineer, has a Look out Sir!, re-rollable 3+, and 4++. That’s about as defensive as he gets. If you’re worried about Sniper spells, then you can take the Obsidian Amulet instead of the Dawnstone giving your Lvl 4 a 2++ against spells.

Then put Talisman of Preservation, Dragon Helm, shield, and sword of might on your BSB. Now he’s still 2+/4++, S5, and still has a 2++ vs flaming.

11

NoisyAssassin:

Definitely drop the Lvl 2 over the Prophet. Use the points for a couple of cheap Khans on wolves. Now you’ve got chaff!

12

Mr Saturday:

The daemonsmith is a lvl 1, and I’m more interested in his ability to keep the magma cannon honest and hold a dispel scroll than his ability as a caster. Is the consensus to run without a scroll?

13

TheFNG:

Well, Bloodbeard and I tend to disagree on this one. He doesn’t like a scroll, while I do. I think the difference between the Chalice plus Scroll and the Chalice without Scroll is the difference between magic superiority and magic domination. A Chalice gives you an edge, but the scroll also makes the Chalice that much more effective. Say he rolls 9+ dice. Now he can throw 6 dice at a spell regardless of the Chalice result. A dispell scroll takes most 6 dice spell attempts and renders it useless which can be critical at any point in the game.

Bottom line to me, those 25 points can easily prevent the loss of hundreds of points so its an auto-take for me.

That said, you don’t even have the Chalice which makes the scroll critical. You have the points on your prophet so grab it with him. No need for a caddy.

14

Baggronor:

You'd drop the prophet? Interesting. You don't rate having a lvl 4 caster, and the added magical defence?
I don't even use the Prophet at 2400pts, he is a waste of space in my experience. Too costly and too risky. I prefer multiple Daemonsmiths for the extra re-rolls and they are expendable. Magic is fickle, artillery with re-rolls isn't.

At 2000, I would run something like:

2 Daemonsmiths one on Metal, one on Fire or Death. Scroll and Charmed/Enchanted Shields. To me, these guys are like additional guns - they throw lots of dice and get things done, if they die its no biggie.

Castellan BSB with Shield and Dragonhelm. At 2400, he gets the Black Hammer and a 5+ ward.

2 Khans on Wolves. Mandatory. Give them bows to shoot Charmed Shields off Daemon Princes. Dragonbane Gem on one of them.

2 x 21 IG with great weapons. I find these to be the least crap set-up for our overpriced infantry.

Magma Cannon. Obviously.

Deathshrieker. Versatile.

6 Fireborn or (if we're going for wins over fun) Iron Daemon. Like 'em both. The train is the power choice though - the tag team of Train and Destroyer can dominate games.

K'Daai Destroyer. Obviously. Start him in the middle and keep your opponent guessing where he is going.

At 2400, I add a Hellcannon and a few bits and bobs. Its not the usual LoA list, but works very well.
15

Mr Saturday:

I appreciate all the advice folks, this is very helpful for me to decide what goes into the initial 2000 point army.

I’m wary of going into a game without a scroll. One purple sun can make for a sad time.

I like that list Baggronor. I do like the iron daemon a lot, but I have it in my head to run fireborn initially. Would you ever use 8 at 2400?

Why 21 IG? 3x7 I take it? Pretty aggressive, my natural inclination for IG is to run them defensively with HW and shield at 5x5 and wait for the destroyer and fireborn to come to the rescue. The second unit is nice though.

16

Baggronor:

Would you ever use 8 at 2400?
Sure, have done many times. They are quite match-up sensitive though, so you need to be careful what they fight.
Why 21 IG? 3x7 I take it? Pretty aggressive, my natural inclination for IG is to run them defensively with HW and shield at 5x5 and wait for the destroyer and fireborn to come to the rescue. The second unit is nice though.
I only run them with great weapons these days. HW+Shield guys will just die slightly slower without killing anything. They often won't even be steadfast as they are expensive. I don't think a 300pt unit should need babysitting from the Destroyer to pull its weight.
Great weapons increase the number of enemy units they can fight effectively by a large margin - lots of Monstrous Cav around these days and Str4 doesn't cut it against them.
Sure, HW+Shield guys can beat up most Str3 Infantry, but that's what the ID/Fireborn are for.
17

Mr Saturday:

I only run them with great weapons these days. HW+Shield guys will just die slightly slower without killing anything.

I’ve been running great weapon IG up to now, they great weapons are so expensive though.

18

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I’ve been running an analysis of the magic phase for about a year - number of spells cast per game, percentage of games where the wizard dies, number of #6 spells cast, etc etc etc.  And while I’m still not done, the numbers I have so far tell me the magic phase is a huge investment for a very small return.  If one were to forgo the magic phase and dump all those points into shooting, you’d get a much more consistent return on your investment.  Unfortunately the magic phase does provide that game-changing opportunity to get off the game-winning spell which is why I suspect many folks are willing to invest so much in it.

Chaos Dwarfs have the most expensive wizard in the game short of a Greater Demon.  A Sorcerer-Prophet is even more expensive than a Slann-mage!  However he is a mediocre if not sub-par wizard at best.  Like Baggronor I too consider him to be a poor investment.  However we do have the best item in Warhammer for shutting down the magic phase and that is of course, the Chalice of Blood and Darkness.  By bringing a Level 2 instead of a level 4 wizard, we save 150 points (or as I like to think of it, a Sorcerer-Prophet < Sorcerer + a Magma Cannon).  I postulate more significant and consistent results from a level 2 and a magma cannon than from a Sorcerer at the risk of an enemy getting 1 or 2 extra spells cast per game.

I prefer consistency over wishful thinking (I’m looking at you, Mr Wind-of-Magic!) so I’d ditch the Level 4 wizard and just bring his little buddy!  Save those points and bring something reliable.

19

Mr Saturday:

Some serious food for thought there. I do like the idea of 2 smiths. The chalice mitigates against an opponents magical superiority, and if the other smith carries a scroll that’s even further reduced.

20

TheFNG:

Grim does your study account for the difference in Leadership? Without a battle lord, we have no way of obtaining leadership 10 without taking a SP.