[Archive] 2500 points tournament army - shooty -

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1

ViLe:

hey there

here is an army list i am planing to use on a tournament this months. The list “evolved” out of an other list i used on a tournament in december, which i took the 4th place with…

it follows the “combat” restriction-system…

before i explain something, just give me your thoughts about it:

1 Lord: 345 Pts. 13.8%

4 Heroes: 500 Pts. 20.0%

2 Core Units: 627 Pts. 25.0%

3 Elite Units: 485 Pts. 19.4%

2 Rare Units: 540 Pts. 21.6%

*************** 1 Lord ***************

Sorcerer-Prophet, General, Level 4 Upgrade

+ Talisman of Preservation

+ Lore of Hashut

- - - > 345 Points

*************** 4 Heroes ***************

Daemonsmith Sorcerer, Level 2 Upgrade

+ Dispell Scroll

+ Lore of Metal

- - - > 155 Points

Hobgoblin Khan

+ Shield of Ptolos

+ Giant Wolf

- - - > 77 Points

Hobgoblin Khan

+ Shield, Light Armour

+ Dragonhelm

+ Giant Wolf

- - - > 66 Points

Infernal Castellan

+ Shield

+ Ironcurse Icon, The Mask of the Furnace

+ Battlestandard Bearer

- - - > 202 Points

*************** 2 Core Units ***************

27 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Great Weapons, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion

+ Banner of Eternal Flame

- - - > 447 Points

10 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician

- - - > 180 Points

*************** 3 Elite Units ***************

Iron Daemon War Engine

- - - > 285 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher

- - - > 100 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher

- - - > 100 Points

*************** 2 Rare Units ***************

Dreadquake Mortar, add. Slave Ogre

- - - > 215 Points

K’daii Destroyer

- - - > 325 Points

Total Points The Legion of Azgorh : 2497

2

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I think any unit with even moderate chaff units will make sure that he picks the combats he wants and will take apart your units one by one. Against an inexperienced player you should do alright but a savvy player has a very good chance to taking this army apart.

Grimbold Blackhammer

3

Mahvo:

Try to find points for Hellbound for the Iron Daemon - you’ll need that T8 and additional wound if you want to fully utilize ID as an Unbreakable tarpit that it can be.

If you are purely after gaming efficiency, I’d change Dreadquake to Hellcannon. Of course, if you already have some Forge model there for Dreadquake, then I understand that you want to use it.

Khans could use at least a spear (+1 S on charge) and your mages could use Charmed Shield (on Prophet, double protection from first cannon ball and some protection from spell misscast) and Enchanted Shield. The latter makes little mage a formidable fighter against the usual warmachine hunters (S5, A2, AS2+).

My suggestion:

lvl2 => lvl1 (and maybe Metal => Death/Fire?), -35 pts (remember that if you go Fire you will cause fear in warbeasts, cavalry and chariots!)

Dreadquake => Hellcannon, -10 pts

Magic shields for casters, +10 pts

Spears for Khans, +8 pts

Hellbound for ID, +25 pts

=> -2 pts

After that you’ll have 5 points left for 2500 pts to go crazy with. Dragonbane Gem to one character (I’d pick the little mage) or what ever you prefer.

4

ViLe:

I think any unit with even moderate chaff units will make sure that he picks the combats he wants and will take apart your units one by one.  Against an inexperienced player you should do alright but a savvy player has a very good chance to taking this army apart.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Grimbold Blackhammer
In general you are right, i miss the option of tacking a lot of stuff to block my enemy out like skaven do. If this was a free tournament without restrictions, i would agree. But i feel like playing half of my life with this special restriction system and i pretty know what to expect from other armies.
f.e. here is my former tournament list with the results, whicht brought me to the 4th place there:
1 Lord: 375 Pts. 15.0%
4 Heroes: 480 Pts. 19.2%
2 Core Units: 627 Pts. 25.0%
3 Elite Units: 485 Pts. 19.4%
2 Rare Units: 530 Pts. 21.2%

*************** 1 Lord ***************

Sorcerer-Prophet, General, Level 4 Upgrade
+ Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Dispell Scroll
+ Lore of Hashut
- - - > 375 Points

*************** 4 Heroes ***************

Daemonsmith Sorcerer, Level 2 Upgrade
+ Lore of Metal
- - - > 130 Points

Infernal Castellan
+ Shield
+ Ironcurse Icon, The Mask of the Furnace
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 202 Points

Hobgoblin Khan
+ Shield, Spear
+ Gambler's Armour
+ Giant Wolf
- - - > 78 Points

Hobgoblin Khan
+ Shield, Light Armour, Spear
+ Dragonhelm
+ Giant Wolf
- - - > 70 Points

*************** 2 Core Units ***************

27 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Great Weapons, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
+ Banner of Eternal Flame
- - - > 447 Points

10 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician
- - - > 180 Points

*************** 3 Elite Units ***************

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
- - - > 100 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
- - - > 100 Points

Iron Daemon War Engine
- - - > 285 Points

*************** 2 Rare Units ***************

K'daii Destroyer
- - - > 325 Points

Hellcannon
- - - > 205 Points

Total Points The Legion of Azgorh : 2497

4. Platz

1. Game vs Vamps 04:16
2. Game vs Imps 17:03
3. Game vs O&Gs 19:01
as you can see, just a few things have changed. The first game was very frustrating.. it was like my dice conspired against me. There was no tactical mistake, just every roll failed. In the end i slaughtered his troops just with my Infernal Guard. Especially in this comp system, never underestimate a big unit of CD with GW or FG. They are one of the hardest things of infantry units that can be brought.

The other games went very well. You have to play this list very defensively. I try to make terrain work for me a little bit. Placing my units into a far behind battle line. Sometimes you get losings in the range of your spells then.. Propably that was the problem why i just missed the 3rd place with just one tournament point.. i knew i would have had better options sometimes by just moving more or placing my units more forward more offensive. Even a K´daai Destroyer can wait to get in combat..

But what would you suggest? There seems to be no room for more wolf riders and stuff.
5

ViLe:

Try to find points for Hellbound for the Iron Daemon - you'll need that T8 and additional wound if you want to fully utilize ID as an Unbreakable tarpit that it can be.

Mahvo
[/QUOTE]

I already made some good experiences with the ID using it for shooting. I think hellbound is quite expensive and if i want to tarpit an unit then the risk is worth to die within the six turns. It also has misled some players to cast support spells on the unit fighting against.
My fear is to get trapped by an ethereal unit without a character with a magic weapon nearby to clear it up. You know, like a lone sneaky ghost charging out of an unit. Therefore hellbound would be nice to counter.

[/QUOTE]

i have an old Dreadquake Mortar just the slave oger has to be converted. I used a Hellcannon before, so it is just for a change.

[/QUOTE]

well they are gone for points i used to play it like that in the list before, which i mentioned in the post above. I will give them a try to prove while they are "more naked".

6

Mahvo:

My suggestion:
lvl2 => lvl1 (and maybe Metal => Death/Fire?), -35 pts (remember that if you go Fire you will cause fear in warbeasts, cavalry and chariots!)
i thought about that also.. switching to death or fire. Fire is nice to get an extra spell to clean up warmachine hunters and stuff. But i rather prefere to use metal because of the high amount of Imperial players arround here, just to get a better handling against these baby griffons and armored characters.
And well, just imagine that 27 Infernal Guard dudes slaughtering a poor unit while blessed by the signature spell from the Lore of Hashut, the +1 to hit and +2 armor save from the Lore of Metal. This lucky combo already chopped apart some other big units.


ViLe
If there are a lot of Empire players, metal is more than justified. That 1+ AS is a pain in the ass and metal gives at least some tools to handle with it. Metal has relatively high casting values, too, so lvl1 metal is kind of a gimp.

Changes of getting the cloak for the mage are only 44% if I got it right (1 - 5/6 * 4/6), but as you said - if you get it, it surely makes you IG blocks scary. And both blades and cloak is what, 1/6 * 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6 so around 11%? If you are happy with either of them and signature (I would be :D), then it is already 66% of the time.

Out of curiosity  - what is this special restriction system? Looks like ETC comp? (No block over 450 pts, warmachines restricted)
7

frogbear:

My suggestion:
lvl2 => lvl1 (and maybe Metal => Death/Fire?), -35 pts (remember that if you go Fire you will cause fear in warbeasts, cavalry and chariots!)

Mahvo
Lore of Metal also causes fear as wounds count as flaming attacks.
8

frogbear:

But what would you suggest? There seems to be no room for more wolf riders and stuff.

ViLe
Not sure on your thoughts but if you want more 'chaff',
1. drop the dreadquake,
2. buy 2 units of riders
3. Find 5 points somewhere (ironcurse or a cheaper shield)
4. Buy a third Deathshrieker

More Drops + Same number of Support Weapons + more options to force unwanted charges....
9

Mahvo:

My suggestion:
lvl2 => lvl1 (and maybe Metal => Death/Fire?), -35 pts (remember that if you go Fire you will cause fear in warbeasts, cavalry and chariots!)

Mahvo
Lore of Metal also causes fear as wounds count as flaming attacks.


frogbear
Brainfart from my side, thanks frogbear! Now I remember to play him the fear causing dude he is in a tournament next weekend. :)
10

ViLe:

Out of curiosity - what is this special restriction system? Looks like ETC comp? (No block over 450 pts, warmachines restricted)
here are thre restrictions:
http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

in general its:
- never generate more than 12 power dice
- generate max two power dice beside the 2d6 roll
- max 4 power dice to use for one spell (no limit for dispel dice :( )
- you cant get more than +4 on casting lore of metal, life, heavens, death, shadows and light
- if you use a model with loremaster than you cant use the lore with another model (horrors or bound items dont count)
- not more than 80 models which are able to shoot. Single shot bolt throwers count as 5 Archers and other war machines as 10.
- max 3 templates incl. breath weapons and cannons
- not more than 45 models per unit
- 9-11 P. max 40 per unit
- 12-14 P. max 35 per unit
- 15-18 P. max 30 per unit
- 19-29 P. max 20 per unit
- 30-39 P. max 12 per unit
- 40 P. and more max 9 per unit
- no choice more then 3 times
- no power scroll, crown of command or the flying fortress
- no special Chars or Champs
- you get look out sir against the big spells like the dreaded 13th and stuff

that are the restricitions in general... but there are also specific terms for each race..

for CD they are as followed:

- a CD army has a "pool" which you can take 4 choices from: Iron Demon, Bale Taurus, K´daai Destroyer (counts twice), first template with S5 or more, second template with S5 or more, Bull Centaur Hero
- Magmacannon, Hellcannon and Mortar count as 15 Archers, throwing knifes on Hobgoblins count as 0,25 and IG with Blunderbusses as 1,5
- no chalice of blood and darkness, not more than one Iron Demon, K´daai Destroyer or Hellcannon

as you can see the restriction system is a real pain in the ass.. Especially the Demon terms make them nearly unplayable. but unfortunately most of the WHFB players here in germany are crybabies especially if the opponent uses magic...
I am really no friend of restrictions at all but otherwise its nearly impossible to find a tournament without.
11

Mahvo:

- a CD army has a "pool" which you can take 4 choices from: Iron Demon, Bale Taurus, K´daai Destroyer (counts twice), first template with S5 or more, second template with S5 or more, Bull Centaur Hero

ViLe
Everybody seems to play like Deathrieker is a S3 template (which it is), but isn't it also a S8 template? If it hits a multipart model all parts are hit with the S8, just like a stone thrower.

I know it would screw CD beyond playable playing it like that, but just a thought.

Beastmen seemed to be very competitive on those special rules - I might be tempted to field a Ghorgon for 200 pts. Of course the anti horde rules hurt them badly to counter that... But 45 model Gor herds ja 35 model Bestigor herds might be competitive. They didn't think that Doombulls need any comp, either. :)
12

Groznit Goregut:

I usually see ethereals on the table whenever my opponent can. Why not give one Khan a cheap magic weapon? It’s almost the same price as a spear for a 5 pt sword. Give him the Sword of Shrieking and he can even avoid fear.

I think the Dread Quake Mortar might help you in slowing him down or whittling away his blocks. Just make sure you use it against the right target. I could even see targeting enemy war machines with it. IF you don’t kill it, he might destroy himself with dangerous terrain test.

How do the 10 Fireglaive guys do? I’ve often wondered how they could do. I tend to use units of Hobgoblins instead, though. Cheap and lots of ranks.

13

ViLe:

ok guys in a few hours the list will have a testmatch against Dwarfs, Lizardmen or Vampire Counts… depends on which army my friend will bring. I will Change the list a little bit and tell you the results later.

How do the 10 Fireglaive guys do? I’ve often wondered how they could do. I tend to use units of Hobgoblins instead, though. Cheap and lots of ranks.
besides the low BS i like Fireglaive units. I have 30 of them with one command group. I like the small unit more to protect warmachines other than Hobgobs with bows.

- You can hide a charakter in the unit if needed.

- You have better chances in CC against the usual fast units that will get behind your lines, remember they still have Blackshard Armour and helberds

- Sometimes they hit and S4 armour piercing is much better than a poor bow

- no animosity and better leadership

- and of course FW Infernal Guard with Fireglaives look just amazing :wink:

14

Baggronor:

That is some pretty silly comp restrictions. Looks like your local players need to man up and play properly :wink:

I second Lore of Metal. I run it on my Prophet now - great weapons and Glittering Robe/Enchanted Blades is the only way to make IG worthwhile these days, plus Searing Doom deals with those oh-so-popular Monstrous Cav scum nicely.

I wouldn’t take an ID without Hellbound. Its indestructibility is its main selling point. Anything it fights needs to be at 6s to wound.

Wolf Raiders are a ridiculous waste of points - Fast cav have low life expectancy at the best of times without spontaneously losing D3 models or randomly panicking. Wolf Khans are better in most ways, though the lack of Vanguard is annoying, especially as regular Gobbo Big Bosses on wolves get it.

The list looks like pretty standard stuff, all good choices. Its kinda depressing how few options there really are with LoA…

15

ViLe:

Ok the game was vs Lizardmen.

His List was like this:

- Slann with bonus dice, Loremaster of Life, BSB, i guess he had +3MR

- Lv 2 Skink, Ironcurse Icon

- Skink Hero, flying, second handweapon

- Saurus Hero on Cold One, 1+ AS, 2+ ward vs flaming, great weapon

- Saurus Hero on Cold One, 1+ AS, 2+ ward vs flaming, Sword of Anti Heros, ini potion

- Skink Kroxy unit, 5 Krox and a real bunch of skinks

- 25 Temple Guard, ofc Slann and Saurus Heros went in there, the champion had TOTS

- 2x10 Skinks with javelins and shields

- 2x10 Skinks with pipe

- 2x5 chameleons

- 2 Salamanders

- 2x3 Skinks on flying dinos

Unfortunately Magic worked good for the Lizardmen. Most of the time he had spells like Throne of Wines or Flesh to Stone on his temple guard. Besides that, the game went very well for me in the first rounds… I set up in the left corner of my deployment zone near my table edge. He wasnt able to poison my K´daai to death, my Iron Demon killed one of the flying units and the Ptolos Hobgob Hero killed one of the chameleon units. And of course, my warmachines brought dead to his two big units.

My plan was to use the rockets to lay down the skinks from the combined horde and take the mortar against the temple guard.

The Plan was halfway done… the combined horde was reduced to just a couple of skinks and ready to get slaughtered by my infernal guard. I trapped his temple guard one round in the ash storm, unfortunately i lost 2 magic levels by doing that :frowning:

His Skinks got halfway killed by fireballs, my hobgoblin heros and fireglaive shooting. But then i made a mistake… I was too greedy… It was after i caught his temple guard into the ash cloud. He wanted to prevent me from charging in his combined horde by moving some javelin skinks between them. If i had rolled high enough to reach the skinks i would have easily overran into the horde. But well after thinking some minutes talking and smoking a cigarette he decided to flee. I still could have made it into the horde but i rolled to low :frowning:

Now his temple guard was free. But instead of trying to charge my IG (it was still a dicy distance) he moved one of the heros out to Block my K´daai, which had also tried to make a triky flank charge into the guard but roled so poorly that he failed. These dumb demon just needed a six :frowning:

After the new angles i decided to mess up with the temple guard. I charged into them with my IG and luckily passed the roll. I also issued an attack with the Iron Demon on the guard. I thought with both units and maybe hatred i would chop the lizards into pieces…

Well i failed the roll for the IDs attack… again just needed a six… I miscast on hatred and end up losing my remaining magic levels. Well we fought against each other… not very good rolls on each side. But without a level 4 mage i wasnt able to handle his magic… So with flesh to stone and the other buffs he wiped out my IG with BSB and sorcerer prophet. If i just stud back and would not have moved that agressively as i had the chance to, the combat an everything would have happened one round later. My IG would not have beend wiped out and the game would have ended as a draw.

On the other hand… with other miscast results and casting rolls his guard might been killed by mine.

With loosing my main unit it was a win to the Lizardmen but still a nice game. Again the Iron Demon convinced. Maybe i should think about more protection for my wizards and to switch back from mortar to hellcannon.

I have still to control my greed for victory points… have to play this list more defensively.

That is some pretty silly comp restrictions. Looks like your local players need to man up and play properly Wink


you are right… i hate these restriction crap. But most of the guys here wont play against me without restrictions :frowning:

And even with this brutal system people are crying about magic and shooting… :frowning:

16

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Anyone fielding a Slaan gets no sympathy from me.

Grimbold Blackhammer

17

Blackspine:

Anyone fielding a Slaan gets no sympathy from me.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Grimbold Blackhammer
wait, what's so bad about having a free dice on every spell?
it's not like that extends your magic phase almost infinitely....
18

ViLe:

ok guys, i changed the list a little bit. I made a testgame and tabled an empire army.
Here is the new list:

1 Lord: 350 Pts.   14.0%
4 Heroes: 507 Pts.   20.2%
2 Core Units: 627 Pts.   25.0%
3 Elite Units: 485 Pts.   19.4%
2 Rare Units: 530 Pts.   21.2%

  1 Lord    

Sorcerer-Prophet, General, Level 4 Upgrade
+  Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield
+  Lore of Hashut
- - - > 350 Points

  4 Heroes    

Infernal Castellan
+  Shield
+  Ironcurse Icon, The Mask of the Furnace
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 202 Points

Hobgoblin Khan
+  Light Armour
+  Shield of Ptolos
+  Giant Wolf
- - - > 79 Points

Hobgoblin Khan
+  Shield, Light Armour
+  Warrior Bane, Dragonhelm
+  Giant Wolf
- - - > 71 Points

Daemonsmith Sorcerer, Level 2 Upgrade
+  Dispell Scroll
+  Lore of Metal
- - - > 155 Points

  2 Core Units    

27 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Great Weapons, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
+  Banner of Eternal Flame
- - - > 447 Points

10 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician
- - - > 180 Points

  3 Elite Units    

Iron Daemon War Engine
- - - > 285 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
- - - > 100 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
- - - > 100 Points

  2 Rare Units    

Hellcannon
- - - > 205 Points

K’daii Destroyer
- - - > 325 Points

Total Points The Legion of Azgorh : 2499
now i am just back home from the tournament. Remember, i made the 4th place on a tournament last year with the list in the topic.
But this time the tournament was just a big fail…

first game vs Skaven, Blood and Glory:
Grey Seer
Warlord with Fellblade on the Rat Ogre mount
Warlock LV1 with Doom Rocket
Warlock with Brass Orb
Plague Priest lv2 with a flail
BSB with Stormbanner
3x 45 Slaves with shields
25 Clanrat bunker with shields
40 Monks with Plage Furnance and the re-roll Banner
5 Gutter Runners with poisoned slings
3x 5 giant rats
1 warplightning cannon
and a HPA

Well besides the Stormbanner lasting for 5 Turns, the HPA making a 17" move tarpiting up my Iron Deamon in round 2 for the rest of the game and the grey seer jumping out the dimensional cascade in turn one the game was at least against a nice opponent.
BTW, in round 3 my Sorcerer Prophet was reduced to zero magic levels and the warlord ate up nearly ech available rocket without a 2+ ward against flaming…
I did not broke but the game ended up in favour for the skaven, surprisingly.

Game 2 vs Tomb Kings was Battle Line with a special 500 Points objective in the middle of the battlefield.

1 King with the +3 attacks Sword and a potion of strength
1 King general with the Sword of Anti Heros and the Armor of Fate
1 lv 2 Hierophant
1 lv 2 Light
40 Grave Guard
40 Skeletons
15 Archers
5 Horsemen Archers
1 Scorpion
2x 3 Chariots
2 Catapults
2 Caskets

i thought Tomb Kings would be an easy matchup… again FAIL

If the game had ended after round 5, i would have won…

his general, the catapults, the chariots, the horsemen and the grave guard were already gone. But then started the worst luck of all time…
He moved his scorpion to the objective to contest it, which i was holding with my iron deamon, while the ID itself was in close combat with the skeletons.
A rocket scattered from the scorpion to the ID, i made my re-roll… and … it scattered onto the ID, leaving him with two wounds left. After that the ID was beaten up by some skeletons O_o
My Hellcannon missfired, i made the re-roll… and… it ate his crew.
His remaining king killed my BSB and a turn before the K’daii. I am especially in tournaments not able to pass my 4up for it. The double Caskets did nothing until his turn 6. I saved up dispel dice for them… his first one failed, his second one came with irresistible, killed my lv4 and the crewless Hellcannon.
after checking the points including the objective, the Tomb Kings took the win. Well at this point i was very frustrated

Game 3 vs Orks & Goblins, normal Battle Line

Goblin Shaman on giant spider with the loremaster item
ork waaghboss on boar
2 savage orc wizards lv2
1 fyling goblin hero
8 wolf riders
8 spiders riders
40 savage orcs
2x1 troll
2x giant spider

My ID blew up his gun on my first turn and it took me 3 missiles and 2 flames of azgor to kill the loremaster spider. The stupid goblin was still on two wounds after that.
What do you think, how long does a K’daii need to take down a giant spider? 8 Wounds, you hit it on 3+ and wound it on 3+ with 7 to 9 attacks. After three rounds of comabt the spider took down the K’daii with the spider having just one wound left. BTW he poisoned me three times with his evil s10 attack. Besides some other bad luck on both sides the game was a draw.

My worst tournament ever. My list was a good one for that strange comp system but my dice worked against me…
Maybe an Omen of Hashut to switch from a gunline to another type of setup.
At first i will drop the Destroyer, because he uses to wift his attacks and i cant make 4+ ward saves…