[Archive] A Discussion regarding Medals on CDO

Xander:

For 2009 I want to do a bit of reform on how some medals are distributed. This thread is designed to get input from the members of the site and their thoughts about what could/should be done.

Here are the main topics I would like to here some feedback about:

1) Are Medals too easy, or too hard to get?

2) Should Gold, Silver and Bronze medals be rewarded for Golden Hats and Artisan’s Contests regarless of how many people enter?

3) What are some other things that should be recognized with medals?

I will post my own answers to these questions after I get some good feedback so that I don’t unduly influence anyone’s opinion.

Thanks!!

Hashut’s Blessing:

  1. Possibly too many, but not too bothersome for me.

    2) For the above reason, maybe reduce it. Otherwise, keep as is.

    3) Not sure, but should be getting the annual rewards thing done soon, methinks?

Thommy H:

  1. I think they’re about right at the moment. The medals, from looking around briefly, do seem to accurately reflect people’s contribution to the site. As a visual shorthand, they seem to do the job. Anyone with a lot of them is definitely someone you can see at a glance is a “veteran”, to use normal forum nomenclature. Other websites have star ratings and stuff (which we do too), but usually they just show post count - the medals really do mean something, and you can see that people have made worthwhile contributions to CDO and haven’t just been hanging around for ages.

    Bear in mind I may be biased because I have quite a few though…

    2) Well, the issue here is that if you don’t always give them out, you’re punishing people for other peoples’ actions. If 500 people enter the Golden Hat and someone comes second, they should get a medal, but if only 3 enter, instinct is to not give the same medal for that - but, it’s not the entrants fault that no one else joined in, is it? On the other hand, that medal isn’t worth as much if there are less entrants, so it’s Catch-22. My thinking is the current system is probably okay - award the runner-up prizes if there’s enough entrants to justify it, but otherwise don’t bother. When there’s only three entries, giving out a bronze is just farcical. Plus no one wants to be told their entry was the worst. Better to have either one or three top prizes and then everyone else is “didn’t place”. I actually don’t really like the current “open voting” results where everyone can see who lost. I don’t think it’s fair.

    3) I think if there are any more things, they run the risk of existing for the sake of existing. As projects get created and the site does new things, you can create more medals, but right now I think there’s enough.

    So…to conclude…don’t change a thing :stuck_out_tongue:

Ancient History:

You could award some slaves with each medal…

Kera foehunter:

well #1 well im not there!!yet

2- well i say it should be all three if there are number of 10 or more people !



#3- im not reaily much in the metals, so this not a big thing too me !!

Willmark:

I too am waiting before I post my thoughts on this matter, I want to see what the community thinks.

skabradisdead:

I like how it currently works…

… but I am new…

B

Servius:

heres my opinion…

Question 1: Looks pretty good and well thought out. Though i have some opinions ill leave in question 2 as they fit there better. But Thommy has it on the head on this… When Cinderhat speaks I listen.

Question 2: I think one thing that may be causing some issue is how certain awards are of a less value than what they should be… Take the Golden Demon. there are many around but only a few diehards actually attend more than one of them. Usually people only go to the one that is closest to their area. I compare the Golden Hat to the Demon in many ways. and I find that the number of GH winners is rather large. When it was first protrayed it seemed like it was a really difficult prize to win… it seems less that now in hindsight to me. I think running the Hat once a year would be the best idea; 1: it would give people a year to prepare their miniatures and do their best job instead of give a month or 2 notice and people having to rush their entries. 2: this would also help to keep entries up in number as people wouldnt get burnt out as easily.

On AC I would make it more of a run up to the Golden Hat. Make it every 3 or 2 months and make it less formal of an affair than the Hat.

Have a few entries for it that really wont confront with the hat as much. Just to give people a break and get more people interested in participating in both AC and the Hat.

For the Hat run Categories such as Character, Unit, Monster & Open similar to the Demon. as far as awarding make it simple. If there is 5 entries in a category, That category is valid for the Gold Award. If there is 10 or more then Gold, Silver & Bronze will be awarded. If in the event an entry is not in a category which will be given award either make an award called “GH First Cut” for the best entry, its less than a full award but recognizes that persons hardwork. Or simply try to place the entries in other categories which they will fit. (I.E. If there is 3 entries in Open and 4 in Monster and 3 in Unit. Simply merge them all into the Open Category giving 10 entries and giving the opportunity for people to win silver and bronze.

For AC I would run something like: Written, Drawn, Green & Gray (unpainted minis and such) & Painted.Then do the same as the GH as far as it comes to entries…

I feel that the idea of saying what can be entered into the contest while a cool idea, did more to drop numbers of entries instead of inviting people to enter.

I think Running the GH in March and September would be optimal as not many big holidays are happening worldwide, it is outside of the times for school exams. Etc.

Question 3: I think their are plenty. Though I do think that the Medal Images themselves need to be worked on… I find the Showcase, AC and a few other not fitting with the theme of the rest of them.

theimmortal:

well, i think as a new member (well sort of) that the medal system is quite fine how it is

the golden hat thing should be balanced between the quality of enties more than quantity

im not sure if medals are hard or easy to get yet, not having one

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

Question 2: I think one thing that may be causing some issue is how certain awards are of a less value than what they should be.. Take the Golden Demon. there are many around but only a few diehards actually attend more than one of them. Usually people only go to the one that is closest to their area. I compare the Golden Hat to the Demon in many ways. and I find that the number of GH winners is rather large. When it was first protrayed it seemed like it was a really difficult prize to win.. it seems less that now in hindsight to me. I think running the Hat once a year would be the best idea; 1: it would give people a year to prepare their miniatures and do their best job instead of give a month or 2 notice and people having to rush their entries. 2: this would also help to keep entries up in number as people wouldnt get burnt out as easily.
   On AC I would make it more of a run up to the Golden Hat. Make it every 3 or 2 months and make it less formal of an affair than the Hat.
Have a few entries for it that really wont confront with the hat as much. Just to give people a break and get more people interested in participating in both AC and the Hat.
   For the Hat run Categories such as Character, Unit, Monster & Open similar to the Demon. as far as awarding make it simple. If there is 5 entries in a category, That category is valid for the Gold Award. If there is 10 or more then Gold, Silver & Bronze will be awarded. If in the event an entry is not in a category which will be given award either make an award called "GH First Cut" for the best entry, its less than a full award but recognizes that persons hardwork. Or simply try to place the entries in other categories which they will fit. (I.E. If there is 3 entries in Open and 4 in Monster and 3 in Unit. Simply merge them all into the Open Category giving 10 entries and giving the opportunity for people to win silver and bronze.
   For AC I would run something like: Written, Drawn, Green & Gray (unpainted minis and such) & Painted.Then do the same as the GH as far as it comes to entries..
   I feel that the idea of saying what can be entered into the contest while a cool idea, did more to drop numbers of entries instead of inviting people to enter.
   I think Running the GH in March and September would be optimal as not many big holidays are happening worldwide, it is outside of the times for school exams. Etc.

Servius
I like that idea :hat off

Also how about a small medal for everyone who entered like a 'I tried my best' badge?

Thommy H:

Also how about a small medal for everyone who entered like a 'I tried my best' badge?
What's to stop someone entering something completely random or inappropriate just to get this medal then? I don't think anyone would be unscrupulous enough to do so, but it would make that particular medal a bit pointless. I don't think we want to be making more medals unless there's something new to justify them. The Word of Hashut medal was a good new medal because it was a brand new project - making more medals for things that already have a series of medals associated is not a great way to go, I don't think.

Also, I'd feel kind of patronised if I got a medal like that. It's a bit "Everyone Gets A Trophy Day!" isn't it?

Ishkur Cinderhat:

Medals? Me likey! :slight_smile:

Personally I think the medals system currently in place is a great addition to the other identifiers - post count, skull icons and slaves.

1) they seem just right. The most valued ones are probably the Golden Hat and Artisan’s Contest ones anyway. They need to be hard to get, otherwise we’ll just all look like the Soviet General Staff in short time :smiley: and the medals would also lose their value as indicator of how involved a member is in the community.

It’s time for the “Best of 2008” medals hand out soon, right? So many people will probably add a shiny trinket to their profile soon anyway (not me, unfortunately as I was quite inactive last year).

2) Hm, well I’d say no. The regulation that 10+ entries are required to open a chance for silver and bronze means that more people are motivated to enter their own ideas and minis, and if there are fewer entries it’s also easier for each person who entered to get the coveted gold medal… statistically, anyways.

3) Can’t think of any right now. But of course if there were some new project like the WoH or CDO Radio, this would be a good time to introduce a new medal! :hat off

Kera foehunter:

well back to # 2 issue i think it might be good if we have one contest the golden hats !!!

we always have a poor turn out for the Artisan contest!!!

hey i might be wronge but i think most people put there time in the golden hats!!

i might be off topic !!! well most of the time!

kera

Willmark:

Artisans Contest was an outgrowth of the Golden Hat. It came about because there were members who felt that the couldn’t compete in the Golden Hat. In a way the motivation for anyone who enters a contest has to be considered as well

Perhaps Artisans Contest goes to purely terrain rather then a strictly idea contest.

Thommy H:

I’ve posted my thoughts about the Artisans’ Contest elsewhere, but I do feel like having a competition for people who feel they can’t enter the more prestigious competition is a bit…uh…silly. Where does it end, you know? How low to we have to set the bar before people are happy that there’s a competition they can win? It’s a competition: you’re not supposed to be able to just walk it. Rolling the Artisans into the Golden Hat and having categories to cover things like terrain would be a good idea, I think. And since we’ve covered loads of different things in the GH already, making it more like the Golden Demon with lots of different categories would be a nice idea - having it yearly or maybe every 6 months would stop it being so overwhelming too. If you think of all the GH’s we’ve had this year and the different things people made for them, then imagine that was all one contest happening now with each GH being a different category, you can see how it would work.

GRNDL:

From a site user point of view, I think reducing the number of Golden Hats is a bad idea. For me, it is a way of getting inspired and getting something done. It gives me a specific task I can work toward and a deadline which means something, as opposed to personal deadlines which are pretty meaningless. If it was reduced to one a year, sure the prestige of it would go up, but user participation in the site may decline. Also, if someone is busy during that time of the year, then they miss out on their chance to enter.

I suppose it is key to ask what is the purpose of the GH? For the prestige of “having an award” or is it the result in participation and interest in the site?

re: Silver & Bronze medals for low turnout
   This is a tough one, simply because of the prestige factor. From an entrant’s point of view, I’d get a lot more excited by the prospect of more prizes, statistically speaking. No one knows what the turnout will be before the entries are submitted, so everyone enters with the same impression of the competition.
   I’d prefer to keep the silver/bronze distinction - clealy the Golden Hat is still coveted, and the silver and bronze hats while prestigious don’t have that “first place feeling”.  My only suggestion is to include a new medal “Runner Up” which replaces both Silver & Bronze in low turnout. Its not a Golden Hat, its not a Hat at all - but it shows that someone put time and effort into the competition, which, IMO, is what the spirit of the competition is. Perhaps if you get 5 Runner Up medals, you get an Honorary Hat for continued dedication. :slight_smile:

Artisan’s Contest
   I think that in most people’s minds, the AC doesn’t have the prestige of the GH and to complicate matters, the categories that have sprung up to help people who aren’t necessarily artistically inclined, makes the decision of entering more complicated - which category do I go in, how can I prepare an entry for it, etc?

  Part of this problem might be its emphasis on models still. Its still about designing a model and so still related to art. If it was perhaps aimed at “just being creative”, perhaps it would be perceived differently. If it included game design, story telling, an idea for a new model/conversion, project development (like webzines, competitions, etc), then there might be greater turnout. Of course, how to judge this is an issue - I doubt it would be objective to put up for a vote. What is intriguing or imaginative to one reader might not be to another. I would suggest having a “panel” of judges taken from the admin, or a invited panel of site members (perhaps GH winners), that represent a facet of the hobby and get them to vote and discuss the entries.

Thommy H:

Part of this problem might be its emphasis on models still. Its still about designing a model and so still related to art. If it was perhaps aimed at "just being creative", perhaps it would be perceived differently. If it included game design, story telling, an idea for a new model/conversion, project development (like webzines, competitions, etc), then there might be greater turnout.
I was thinking this exact thing just after I made my last post. I get that the idea is "have a competition for people who aren't so good at painting and modelling", and that's fine, but why then is it still pretty much totally based around that? The answer to the question "what can people who can't paint/model do?" is not "have ideas about painting and modelling just not actually do them". It's especially farcical when the AC does still have categories that involve painting and modelling, and everyone automatically sees that these are more prestigious. I remember the notorious AC when there were two entries, one of which was a few paragraphs of text and one of which was an elaborately modelled slave cart - who do you think won that one?

So, if there's going to be a contest for something besides painting and modelling, why not actually do it properly? Instead of just having "painting and modelling without having to paint or model anything", make it a short story or rules contest. Have it be a competition to design a scenario, or write a battle report, or come up with a special character, or, hell, what about an "Army List" category where we mull over the toughest, nastiest army? There's a whole side of the hobby that doesn't have anything to do with figures to reward people for - why are we having a competition to "design" terrain when, as far as I'm aware, this isn't something anyone ever does for Warhammer without physically making it.

I know I'd enter a short story or rules designing competition in a heartbeat.

Hammerhand:

  1. I think the number of medals is about right.

    2) I’m kinda with Thommy on this one, in that only the top 3 should be anounced. The gold/silver/bronze issue is never going to go away. As much as it’s silly to award bronze when there are only three entries, they could be three outstanding entries that could have won another competition, so thommy is right about them being punished for other people not entering.

    How about instead of setting a deadline, set an entry limit - i.e., contest will be judged on receipt of the first 15 entries or something like that. A couple of contests I have missed just because I didn’t have the time to get my entry finished. could be quicker or even a lot slower!

    Or maybe medal limits set at percentages of the votes, showing that if you win a silver or gold you were competitive for the win, not just ‘turned up, got gong’. The only other way I can think of is to have a panel decide which entires are worthy of medals. It could result in a GH winner only receiving a bronze medal, or even no medals awarded at all, but it would certainly make the awards more prestigous.

Sojourn:

Also how about a small medal for everyone who entered like a 'I tried my best' badge?

Godbob and his jolly rogers
no no no, I do not ever endorse 'mediocrity' nor am I a fan of consolation or paricipation medals. It's like in The Incredibles, when everyone's special, no one is. So my suggestion is like what GRNDL suggested, if the turnout is low, it's not the 2nd or 3rd place finishers fault no one else participated (Thommy's argument)... but with under 10 entries, provide a 'runner up' medal to 2nd and 3rd. It's an acknowledgment of their efforts, despite the turn out.

Number of medals, I certainly don't think there should be any more for Ishkur to win... I mean... you come up with another medal for awesome armies, and you'll need to make the avatar box bigger to fit Ish... *someone's* medals ;)  Now if you want to reward female presence.... :P

so to summarize:

1. Medals are difficult enough to achieve that they still hold value; but easy enough that even those like me can achieve and get involved somehow

2. 2nd and 3rd in low turnout should be recognized by a runner up medal

3. I'm kinda changing my answer 'cause something came to me. When you win say, 5 medals in GH or something, remove those or link to them through a master medal, some medal that recognizes all the efforts and achievements... plus it'll declutter *some peoples* avatar areas ;)

ok, well, not quite 2 cents, more like a nickel :P

Willmark:

There has been a fair amount of discourse so I will add my 2 copper pfennigs to this.

I too like Sojourn am a fan of the Incredibles and they hit the nail on the head, “when everyone is special, no one is”. This isn’t the 4th grade where we have to award a medal for participation so no one feels bad.

Simple fact of the matter is not everyone is going to win the Golden Hat. Sorry, but it had to be said. I’m a fairly decent painter but there is no way I’m winning it, just not going to happen. Still won’t prevent me from trying thou if the subject matter strikes me as something I want to do. Sometimes teh Journey is teh reward, in other words enjoy the contest for the sake of the contest, its not about everyone else losing so you can win.

So let me elaborate on the questions:

Xander wrote: 1) Are Medals too easy, or too hard to get?

I’d go more towards to hard if anything. Look at them right now. Since I have been working on the WoH I have been running a section on all of the sites medals , so I’d say I’m pretty familiar with the rules of how they are awarded and there are only 2 maybe 3 medals that a member can actually achieve without a vote or Xander’s decision, that’s right that few. So too easy? Are you kidding? I’ve heard that mentioned and I’m somewhat mystified that anyone can say that.

Army Medal for each 1,000 point block painted and the Image Gallery medal are the only two that a member controls whether or not they receive it. The 3rd is the Chaos Dwarf Radio medal, appear on 4 or more podcasts and receive it… that’s it. Image Gallery, very few people are taking the time to document their army, photograph it and notify me… So in short its a question of motivation, if you want a medal bad aenough start painting and photographing.

Every other medal depends on Xander deeming it appropriate or a vote by the Community… So is long and short medals are not easy to get.

Xander wrote: 2) Should Gold, Silver and Bronze medals be rewarded for Golden Hats and Artisan’s Contests regardless of how many people enter?

See my quote above. There is no way to do this without someone being disgruntled. If only 9 enter… its still just a Gold awarded, Bronze and Silver were organically added when we started getting more entries and members, it wasn’t there from the beginning. In fact maybe the onus is on the Staff for making sure that the Contests are good enough to make 10 people or more want to enter, even then it still ultimately out of our control just how many people enter.

I also wonder about motivation. Is the reason why one enters a contest is solely to win a medal? Its fun sure, but its for the greater cause of Chaos Dwarfs ultimately. Participant medals? No way.

Xander wrote: 3) What are some other things that should be recognized with medals?

Right now as the medals are they recognize hard work and/or a commitment to the community as a whole. These should always be guiding tenets of the creation of any medal that is put forth.

In short as is, is the best route to go as I have seen no compelling argument as to why it should be changed.