A long time ago, I made the following thread: Chaos Dwarf Players: Disgruntled or Delighted in which I put forward the argument that it was the very lack of support for Chaos Dwarfs that allowed the community to flourish as it has done. With only tiny snippets from GW to guide us over the last decade, I reasoned, we had been forced to expend huge effort to provide our own models, artwork, rules and fiction.
In the ensuing years - and that thread is four years old, which brings home to me how much time I’ve spent as part of this great community - I believe this has become even more true. The Word of Hashut (now sadly on hiatus) has showcased enough member artwork to fill an Armies book (I know this for a fact…), more models and units than can be accommodated in a real colour section (again…) and enough fiction and rules to fill several Armies books. The Indy GT book, my own book and the work of other rules fanatics on this site has pushed forward the perception of Chaos Dwarfs in exactly the same way that years of continued support from GW would have. On a commercial front, we have reached a point where affordable kits from Mantic and high quality models from several manufacturers, not least our own Baggronor at Titan Wargames, mean that a Chaos Dwarf army is within easy grasp of a new player again. This was unimaginable to any of us four years ago.
I feel like, in the absence of models, rules, background and artwork from GW, we went out and we just did it ourselves. Finally, this year, we reached the point where we could say to GW, “that’s fine - we don’t need you now. We have all the pieces of the puzzle now. We can do this without your support.” Almost all of that has come from CDO. As a community, I believe we have achieved our goals and made Chaos Dwarfs a reality again.
So, it is with mixed feelings that I see Warhammer Forge swoop in and claim all the glory for resurrecting them. I feel as if, at the moment of our final victory against impossible odds, the reinforcements have suddenly arrived. We did the work, but they get the credit. It’s like we were POWs, planning an elaborate and daring escape and, as we finally emerge from the tunnel into the free air, our army suddenly shows up out of the blue to shut down the prison camp. If we’d just waited a little longer, we wouldn’t have even had to bother digging…
To me, this community has flourished because we had nothing. Now we have something again, and I’m sure we’ll be flooded with new members - which is great - but those people weren’t with us in the hard times. They didn’t see us come up from nothing. They weren’t reading Ancient History’s gleaned scraps of fluff in WoH, they weren’t converting BFSP figures with Xander and Snotling, they weren’t trying to dethrone Ishkur in every single goddamn Golden Hat (it seems ;P), they weren’t waiting for the next instalment of Baggranor’s Shadow and Flame, they weren’t trying to get Chaos Dwarfs out there with t-shirts like Willmark, or putting mentions of them into the Nemesis Crown fluff like Hashut’s Blessing, or the countless other selfless endeavours that CDO has spearheaded.
So, over-dramatising aside, I was wondering how everyone else felt about the future of CDO. Are we in the waning days of fan-created Chaos Dwarf content? Is official GW stuff preferable to our own stuff anyway? Is it okay to meekly shelve our own efforts in favour of the new WF stuff that’s coming out? I have to admit, part of me just wants to dive headlong into whatever WF puts out, and not obsess over my own work any longer. But I put a lot of time and effort into all this…
I don’t want this to descend into any kind of argument or mudslinging match - this is a community that has been mercifully free of major divisions for as long as I’ve been here, anyway - but I do think this is a topic that needs some honest examination.
In the light of our crusade effectively being finished, where does CDO go from here?
To be honest I think you’re really overcomplicating this.
WF rules will be good for people who want “official” rules. This will be good for CDO because it will finally bring us back into the mainstream. Our numbers will increase, more blogs to discuss.
WF models are there for people who want expensive “official” models to go with their “official” list. Fine. The more the merrier.
For people who don’t want to play the WF list, or who want something a little different there is still a place for all the fanlists. Infact with more people around they may get more use, not less.
Finally, imo the demand for characterful models will go up, because WF models are mostly quite expensive. The market for characterful models that happen to be useful in a WF list has just grown massively overnight.
These are glorious days imo.
I don’t see the community rejecting big hat artwork or any fan fluff.
What you may see are more people doing what I’m doing and building collections to their own background material and not accepting fully the new canon.
I’ve been watching this community for a long time now, but I believe that we will still go on casting, selling and sharing models and ideas even after FW has released their models a few years down the track. At least I’d hope so. I’ll definitely be sticking around
I feel as though one of us (or more) with access to wikipedia (I know that sounds stupid, but I was banned from it. Ah, good times at high school) should update the Chaos Dwarf entry (or create one) and let the new fanbase know that our site (and more importantly its members) carried the flame for over a decade.
I’d be very disappointed to see this site go downhill now that FW’s released their own models, especially since it’s much more pleasant and better run than another site I can think of (DakkaDakka anyone?) where things are constantly criticised (not always constructively) and pissing contests are rife.
I love this site and in turn the minds of the people that allowed it to happen. I feel as though we’ll always be more than the new fanbase that will inevitably occur.
I think that there may be some ‘turnover’ - but there are so many innovators and artists here whose desire for self expression through painting, modelling and writing about chaos dwarfs will not stop, simply because new miniatures or rules are created.
Their work will continue - whether or not there is an ‘official’ or ‘semi-official’ army list and new miniatures.
Also, given the cost of the new miniatures, it seems to be MORE financially viable to create a force using ‘old-school’ 5th edition Chaos dwarf miniatures than a ‘modern’ forgeworld miniature populated one, and use the inspiration found of this site to create something truly unique.
Some interesting points there but i think most of us have been hoping for chaos dwarfs to be released again one day so i dont think we have much to complain about now that it has actually happened even when a lot of people doubted it ever would. I dont mean to cause any offense to anyone, but imo all the material and models that have been created in the past few years are really just things to pass the time until that time came. The materials and models, although great, could never have filled the void left when gw abandoned chaos dwarfs but what Warhammer Forge are doing can and will, although i think a positive side effect of this will be models like baggronor’s getting a lot more attention and sales because of the amount of people that have decided after waiting all these years the new models are just too expensive to buy (the rank and file models at least, although i think collecting an army of the old models is just as expensive as buying these new ones. Im sure the single models will be perfectly affordable).
Im in two minds about whether or not we will get a lot more members. A lot of members have joined to discuss fan material or for posting their conversions but since neither of these things are needed to play chaos dwarfs anymore i dont know whats going to happen, but since this forum is the biggest source for all things to do with chaos dwarfs the member count could potentially increase a lot if the models and army are really well recieved. Although with people already discussing how they can convert their own Iron Deamons/Infernal Guard maybe the amount of conversions will remain the same/increase, but the style aimed for will be different. There will be those that dont like the fluff either and will probably continue to write their own versions. Im sure there will be a few people abandoning their converted armies in favour of the new models so with all these factors all we can do it wait and see what will happen.
I think we should be happy about the warhammer forge models. As you said, its what we have been crusading for all these years. Spreading the word about chaos dwarfs and trying to revive interest is what the forum and all the fan material and models has been all about and it has obviously been a success. I think we should embrace the new models and fluff and be grateful for the “official” attention chaos dwarfs are finally recieving.
For those that enjoyed creating their own army from scratch, including all models and fluff, the warhammer forge attention will obviously be a big blow but thats why i never felt the need to do this myself. I always thought they would be rereleased and didnt want to spend all that time making something just to have an “official” version released when im done. But now that i think about it, i wonder what the situation would be if no fan lists or models had been made? It could be that they have been essential in helping to bring back chaos dwarfs and its just a shame that they might not get much use anymore.
Personally for me the changes arent going to be that extreme. Ive already sold all my plastics (my least favourite cd models ever that i bought because it was the only thing available at the time) in preparation for the new models and my 3rd edition collection is almost 100% painted. If it hadnt been i would have had no motivation to finish it lol. Im going to keep the rest of my collection because getting a full army of warhammer forge models will definately be more than i can afford. Im probably not going to get to use the models in a game for a few years but by then ill have added a sizeable amount of them to my army and until then they are going to be mainly a painting project for me, as most things are nowadays.
A radical increase in members is the thing i havent been looking forward to because of the inevitable decline in friendliness and increase in flame wars among members. I hope CDO doesnt get turned into just another typical warhammer forum.
I dont mean to cause any offense to anyone, but imo all the material and models that have been created in the past few years are really just things to pass the time until that time came.
Which is exactly the attitude that has led me to my original sentiments. And I think it's a shame if people feel that way.
For those that enjoyed creating their own army from scratch, including all models and fluff, the warhammer forge attention will obviously be a big blow.
Pyro Stick
See, this is the crucial point imo. Why should this change?
Will people abandon creating their fluff etc and go with the mainstream? I doubt that.
No, people will swap old character models for new, old units for new. Keep their own fluff.
The only people that will really be bothered much about the WF changeover are;
> those that liked having a rare army
> those who like seeing the creativity of others and believe it will stop (it will continue I think)
> those that want people to accept their vision of the CD (be it models, rules or fluff).
> (edit) also those that think the WF rules for them are rubbish and believe they *have* to use them.
For everyone else these are glorious days, and from what I've seen not many people here actually have a story for their army anyway.
The only real difference I see now is that instead of people saying 'wouldn't this be cool in the CD list (an imagined new book)' and then building it, they will be saying 'how can I fit this into the WF list'. So some of the more unusual things people have in their imagination or from fanlists will probably not now be made. Not that they were anyway ;P
Although, incidently, people could still make a kollossus/greater daemon engine/whirlwind/juggernaut etc from the Iron Daemon rules. Or a fire breathing lesser engine etc from the magma cannon.
If anything the WF lists now force people to be more creative than they've been in the past. Which is probably good.
But, Grim, do you often see the kind of creativity we see at CDO in other Warhammer communities? As far as I know, there aren’t a handful of virtually complete alternative Empire Armies books floating around the internet. And I know for a fact that there aren’t any army-specific webzines as successful as WoH. I know we’ve still got the precedent of the last decade behind us, but I can’t help feeling that now there’s an official outlet for Chaos Dwarfs, most people will say, “well, why bother?” when it comes to creating their own content.
Creativity in books, no. But again, why should this change now?
I guess what you’re saying is if the WF book had come out already would we now have the Indy list (for example). We may not and that would be a shame. The loss of potential creativity.
People that feel strongly enough to actually write a book (as you know is a HUGE amount of work) will have their own vision. So they will ignore whatever the official rules/ fluff are anyway.
It has probably now become a hell of a lot harder to ‘sell’ any alternate vision of the CD rules and fluff wise, if that is your aim (speaking generally, not just to you). Harder, but not impossible.
It is sad, but most people are not inclined to be creative rules/fluff imo.
Models wise however is an entirely different story. People before that were playing RH and refused to build Immortals/ chaos armoured CD will actually go and convert now because they don’t want to pay FW prices.
People will now be forced to be creative models wise or sell a kidney. We as a forum should in theory still have the highest % of converters for a race
I think of it as we’ve wanted some thing for so long, we’ve all come together to try and convert some awesome models.
We’ve created some awesome stuff together, probably inspired Warhammer Forge to come up with some stuff (to some degree at least). We should all be happy, we’ve kept the name going while GW didn’t really give a toss.
I think we should take what wrhammer forge have made and keep going!
Heck, i’m going to keep converting as I can’t afford the WF models!
It has probably now become a hell of a lot harder to 'sell' any alternate vision of the CD rules and fluff wise, if that is your aim (speaking generally, not just to you). Harder, but not impossible.
I don't know if I care particularly about everyone adopting my particular vision (though personally I don't think it deviates enough from canon sources to be that controversial, but that's another debate), what I do know is that I didn't write an alternate Armies book for Warriors of Chaos, Bretonnians or Vampire Counts, and they're all armies I collect too. And that's because I'm largely satisfied by what GW produces for them. With Chaos Dwarfs, it was precisely because that void in official material existed that I felt the need to fill it in my own way. I kind of thought that's what we were all doing, but maybe not...?
I remember when I started being interested in CD it was the potential to create that really got me fired up. Something I didn’t have with Dwarfs at the time. Hence why I did dozens and dozens of sketches of everything.
The thing is though that I could have done that with Dwarfs at the time. I still could now.
That is the thing that imo is confusing the issue. People can be creative even when they are told what is official. They are mostly (like you) satisfied with the GW version of armies or too lazy to create their own.
That is why I don’t really see this as an issue now. The people (like me) who can still see the enormous potential of the CD will still plug away writing their own stuff. They have potential that stretches far beyond the WF model range.
The CD are far, far easier to completely reinvent (even with official fluff) than dwarfs or empire etc are because we have daemon bound machines and unrestrained technology. Chaos in all it’s forms would be the same. You could create pretty much anything.
I’m glad people now have the option to be lazy/satisfied with FW models, rules and fluff.
For the rest of us the huge potential just got bigger because we have new models to play with, new fluff to inspire. Things have never been better imo and the future is very bright.
Edit. Also, I don’t (unfortunately) see CDO having any part to play in WF releasing the CD. So I cannot be annoyed about them deciding to “swoop in and claim all the glory for resurrecting them”. May be sad to hear, but CDO was probably never even a dot on the radar for GW.
I wasn’t suggesting that we’re the reason Chaos Dwarfs are back, just that, in the eyes of the playerbase, our efforts have now been essentially rendered irrelevant. As Pyro says, the perception will be that we were just killing time. I think that’s a shame - I think all of us worked too hard on the Word of Hashut, on the wiki, on Golden Hat and the Artisan’s contest and on all our rules, models and artwork to be treated as if we’ve just been spinning our wheels waiting for GW to take pity on us.
The thing is though that I could have done that with Dwarfs at the time. I still could now.
Sure. I could make an Armies book for anyone too. But I didn’t. Why was I only sufficiently inspired by Chaos Dwarfs? Because there was a vacuum that was there to be filled.
A intersting thing is that Forgeworld rules are not “offical” in a lot of diffrent ways (some tournaments as a exampel don´t allow them) but the Raving Horde still is (even after this long time)! And the Forgeworld book is not a armybook, just a campagin book so we as chaos dwarfs players still have a lot to do. We can only rest when GW have done a proper chaos dwarf army book, similair to high elves, orc & goblins etc. And we need a complete new range, not just a couple of warmachine and elite troops. We need lord, heroes, core, special and rare choses. So far we don´t and so our struggle is not over.
Also on a side not, I see very little big hats and as long as I don´t see them, it´s never over (I´m a hatter).
So I believe that people and members here will contuie to be active, creativy and fun
@Nazhur, I thought Ravening Hordes wasn’t any more in quite a few places?
Where still uses it?
I guess you could think of the Warhammer Forge rules as Step 1 on our hopes. New models - awesome, some rules - awesome, a chance to play with some stuff that GW have produced - Awesome!
First of all, I’d like to thank you for the mention for my work on the Nemesis Crown. Had a blast doing it and, I think my only regret is that I haven’t had a chance to do more work in a similar vein. Also, clearly I did something right with it because it is often mistaken for GW-made fluff. However, I wasn’t the only one working on this - I was a mere player in a team of writers from CDO working on a region each. I was just the lucky sod that controlled Rykarth the Unbreakable and made him “king of the Immortals”
In fact, these feelings of nostalgia are simply reinforcing my want to return to the work I was doing before - yes, I helped with CDR (then took over, then back to helping out), give my criticisms where possible, pushed for Artisan’s Contest (even if it started on strange footing), but I want to be a bigger part of the community and get back to my army. Had to sell off a bunch of my blunderbussers and 8th changed my view on the way the army worked in a way I wasn’t too pleased with to start off (BBs were my core, then became largely redundant in my eyes) and my enthusiasm dipped - but I want to return to making my units of warriors (of which I only made 5 about 2 or 3 years ago) and buy some FW models.
But, I have found that the sudden support of models and rules hasn’t dampened my spirits for creativity - maybe I’m lucky in that it has spurred me on to show them what a real Chaos Dwarfer can do! Yes, I would like some of the new models and am pleased that there are rules that aren’t too bland (thus far). However, it won’t stop me from making my own models or sourcing them elsewhere (partially due to pricing) because I think that’s part of what I love about the army. It still has the flavour that you give it, far more than any other GW “sanctioned” army. Also, there is no reason to stop the development of rules: I know Thommy H doesn’t like the terms official and unofficial (particularly since this book is both anyway!), so I will use more appropriate ones (that I’d not have thought to use otherwise, hence the mention, lol), but these rules have appeared in such a manner that it shows we now have some backing, but that we can still play around with. I had though of an eloquent message there, but ut left as fingers hit keys
I agree that there will be an influx of people soon (after exams and such like), but that it won’t be as large as we anticipated because our validation is in the form of a supplement book from an off-branch of GW instead of an Army Book from the main department. However, there will be the inevitable youngblood-style newcomers that are joining because it’s the next shiny. But, equally, we may unlock more souls that have a passion equalling our own and adding to the befuddling mix of ideas that zing around like shrapnel in a confined space. We will deal with any troublemakers as best we can, but will simply encourage newcomers to get into our old-man nostalgia spirit. That’s kind of the point of Golden Hat, Artisan’s Contest, Word of Hashut (which I shall try to learn how to make PDFs for my own WHFRP work and then take over if someone hasn’t already done so), Chaos Dwarf Radio and such like.
So, long story turned short, I thinkt hat there’s no harm in being wary, but maybe just use it to force yourself to prove that you didn’t need GW’s help and still don’t, but that we want our own work to be approved of by previous non-believers due to our new-found validity.
I feel like, in the absence of models, rules, background and artwork from GW, we went out and we just did it ourselves. Finally, this year, we reached the point where we could say to GW, "that's fine - we don't need you now. We have all the pieces of the puzzle now. We can do this without your support." Almost all of that has come from CDO. As a community, I believe we have achieved our goals and made Chaos Dwarfs a reality again.
So, it is with mixed feelings that I see Warhammer Forge swoop in and claim all the glory for resurrecting them. I feel as if, at the moment of our final victory against impossible odds, the reinforcements have suddenly arrived. We did the work, but they get the credit. It's like we were POWs, planning an elaborate and daring escape and, as we finally emerge from the tunnel into the free air, our army suddenly shows up out of the blue to shut down the prison camp. If we'd just waited a little longer, we wouldn't have even had to bother digging...
I really think the only reason they're swooping in is because we prepared the ground for them. Without our groundwork, CDs would likely have remained the 4th ed reject laughing stock that they were, instead of morphing into the underground monster that they are now. WF may take the final credit, but really all they did was sculpt more expensive versions of the minis we have spent the last 4 years making. The opinions of several industry people at Salute were that GW/WF had to make CDs because their competitors had started to make them, due to the obvious and increasing demand for them.
To me, this community has flourished because we had nothing. Now we have something again, and I'm sure we'll be flooded with new members - which is great - but those people weren't with us in the hard times. They didn't see us come up from nothing. They weren't reading Ancient History's gleaned scraps of fluff in WoH, they weren't converting BFSP figures with Xander and Snotling, they weren't trying to dethrone Ishkur in every single goddamn Golden Hat (it seems ), they weren't waiting for the next instalment of Baggranor's Shadow and Flame, they weren't trying to get Chaos Dwarfs out there with t-shirts like Willmark, or putting mentions of them into the Nemesis Crown fluff like Hashut's Blessing, or the countless other selfless endeavours that CDO has spearheaded. So, over-dramatising aside, I was wondering how everyone else felt about the future of CDO. Are we in the waning days of fan-created Chaos Dwarf content? Is official GW stuff preferable to our own stuff anyway? Is it okay to meekly shelve our own efforts in favour of the new WF stuff that's coming out? I have to admit, part of me just wants to dive headlong into whatever WF puts out, and not obsess over my own work any longer. But I put a lot of time and effort into all this...
Well, I think its a classic case of the journey being more meaningful than the destination. Like conquering generals with no wars left to fight, we must now settle down and confront a different existence. Yeah, I've just come back from the pub ;)
I agree that its a strange feeling, as we spent so long creating something from nothing. I think we need to accept that this was always going to be the end result and it should be a happy one for the most part. Its not enough for me to just do 'normal' armies (as anyone who has seen my other armies will know), and that is what I loved about CDs, the freedom to make crazy stuff and pile layer upon layer of additional material onto each other's ideas. That has now evolved into Titan Wargames for me, where I can now make a whole game and world and populate it with my own particular brand of 28mm nutters.
My thoughts have been expressed by others already, but the short version would go something like this:
- WF prices are very high. People will want cheaper alternatives, vindicating our work and continuing it.
- The rules will be contained in a much larger ruleset meaning that they might still leave a lot of gaps in the new background that we can explore.
- I think this community will continue to flourish.
I just sold a bunch of old warhammer to afford the new CDs, and I want to get my Blunderbussers and Black Orcs painted before my new miniatures arrive. The Avatars of War plastics are heading my way at the end of May, and I will be doing some experimenting with turning them into CDs as well. I still have tons of ideas I want to explore in the CD space, and the new models are only adding to that. Plus, having an official list will help us avoid awkward GW retail shop visits.
The opinions of several industry people at Salute were that GW/WF had to make CDs because their competitors had started to make them, due to the obvious and increasing demand for them.
Baggronor
The chronology of events suggests otherwise.
I think it was early 2008 that a GW staffer sneakily asked on warseer what people would like to be made for warhammer by FW. The overwhelming response was chaos Dwarfs. I remember this and there was hardly a single mention of CDO. From what I remember very few people that posted there were members here or even had CD models. I had it confirmed on good authority that the WF people DID look at this as market research.
In may 2009 a rumour about a future army release sparked a huge amount of people to speculate it would be chaos dwarfs.
Back in early 2009 Tim adcock had begun work on the warmachines. For this decision to be made Warhammer Forge had already been decided on, with management levels and some thought for their first book.
Mid-late 2009 the role of CD in the tamurkhan book was decided (as it appeared at the time).
Rick finished his work (or at least got close) around June 2010. The warmachines were finished.
Mid-late 2010 rick was made redundant and they started re-writing the tamurkhan book.
End of 2010/ early 2011 they decided to produce a CD army list. I�?Tm inclined to think mid November, as when I spoke to Mark Bedford he basically implied the future of the CD army would be decided the following week.
Now from this you can see that the impact of the competitors (i.e. Scibor and Mantic at this stage) was not exactly related to anything as they happened much later after money and resources had been pumped in.
Scibor started his Moscals range in 2009 I think. Mantic released theirs this year after it had been known for several months already that WF could be going to be doing an army.
Imo FW always presumed that there would be a market out there for them. So it�?Ts probably not that demand was increasing (they probably didn�?Tt care what the competition was doing), just that they think they could make lots of money from them.
Which is why imo CDO has had little or no part in what happened. It was always about the £££ $$$ and once they heard people were crazy about CD (from warseer) they went for it.
