Rather than derail the other thread:
From taking a look at the new rulebook I spied a particular line with direct reference to Chaos Dwarfs, something along the lines “The blacksmiths from beyond the Great Skull Lands prepare for war” or something to that effect, but blacksmiths hardly make an army now do they?
Krulgar The Black
Just a random thought, would it be completely stupid for every Chaos Dwarf (at least those that aren’t too busy raising children, praying or scouting enemy lands etc) to actually be capable of blacksmithing work?
I know all Dwarfs are good artisans by their nature, but afaik not all Dwarfs have the knowledge of basic blacksmithing. It would reinforce our industrial theme.
The quote itself is interesting as well I think, as the millennia we’ve been preparing for war it ought to be truly epic by now.
IMO all dwarves (so CD’s included) have an innate talent for blacksmithing, and are at least capable of basic techniques. Working gold, silver or jewels would require training and talent, but blacksmithing would be taught to all individuals.
No particular fluff or reason on which I base this statement: just the way I see the stunted ones
I too believe that all Dwarfs be them CD or not have some innate talent for smithing. But that doesn’t mean that every Dwarf/CD will train further into that art.
The way I see the CD’s is them not toiling over the anvil like their distant cousins. But to oversee the low ranking CD’s and huge amount of slaves who toil to complete the grand design of their lord. Only when a complex design needs to be forged or assembled shall the lord step in to complete it. Afterall not every detail is worthy to be touched by a mere slave.
Should something go wrong, only a couple of hundred/thousand slaves die. And we all know they got plenty more where those came from.
But again, that’s just my opinion.
In the Forth Ed. WD presents: Chaos Dwarfs when you read the Zharr-Naggrund Tower Fluff you find that CD Sorcerers are rulers among their kind and that each controls a section of the city “with all workshops and forges, warriors and slaves as part of their dominion”. Moreover “The city itself is a Huge living Workshop” and " It was CXD sorcerers who built the city in past ages, carved from Obsidian".
So yes, they have fighters, elite fighters Guards of the Temple (BCs) but most are workers employed in workshops. Presumably Slaves work in the mines, but are Blacksmiths and artisans that work it (who could wear a coat of arms made by a an Ork??? Bleah!!!) . Even Sorcerers must be trained in Balcksmithing and Magic, as they create twisted projects that are realized by workshop artisans.
For instance the mechanical body of Astragoth must ahve been made by CDs…not even the smartest of goblinoids could assemble that without problems…it was surely done by CD blacksmiths
Or well, i think so:)
So there are mentions to the CD in the new rulebook ?
When it says that “the blacksmiths…prepare for war”, I read that as they were making lots of weapons, not that they were going to march out themselves.
I´m trying to be optimistic and read it as they are going to war, some time under this edition
I agree with anymouse but more in line with the higher skills in weapon smithing and armour being more of the thing that requires the best talents. Among the Dawi I’d rank gold and silver smithing with the excelent quality normal CD weapons and armour
I imagine they are building weapons and armor in preparation for war.
Do note there are very different meanings behind blacksmiths, armorsmiths and weaponsmiths(although weapon and blacksmiths are very similar and there is some overlap). Armorsmiths in general arent laboring over red hot metal and are instead hammering and rolling it or in the probable case of chaos dwarves, stamping out lamellar plates and having their underlings lacing them together to make the scale armor you see on the troops. Weaponsmiths and blacksmiths are the ones on the heated forges. One making finely edged weapons, the other making tools and everything from horseshoes, forks, plates, hinges and everything else a civilized society needs. There is alot of overlap between the two but the difference is in specialization. Would you rather have a sword made by a master horse shoe maker or a master blade maker?
Back on topic, hopefully this is a clue that either GW of FW plan on making our dreadlocked midgets have a comeback.
It were CD sorcerers who built the city in past ages, carved from Obsidian".
I remember that, it hurt! ;P
Serious though, as mentioned many times before I also believe every Chaos Dwarf has some innate talent for working with metals, rock, precious stones, enginering, etc, etc...
Maybe each Chaos Dwarf must make his own armour or something other to prove his passing of age/reaching adulthood?
Also, in the rulebook, under ‘The Years of Conflict’, p174, the paragraph named C-4000, is the following:
"Contact is lost between the Dwarfs of the World’s Edge Mountains and the Dwaf settlements of Zorn Uzkull. Foresaken by their people and their gods, the eastern Dwarfs turn to the worship of the Father of Darkness, Hashut. The first citadels of the Chaos Dwarfs raised in the polluted depths of the Dark Lands.’
I see it as possible that each could have some knowledge of blacksmithing. The basics are simple (Heating, shrinking, stretching, forming, refining, corrosion) and can be taught in less than a week. Mastering and increasing skills in the basic blacksmithing is only about experience using them.
I see it as possible that each could have some knowledge of blacksmithing. The basics are simple ....
This has been exactly my thought on this as well. Being Dwarves they still have some innate abilities with smithing, mining, etc.
Unfortunately most of our lands are full of slaves - pitiful wretches with no sense of metallurgy, smithy work or construction... If only we could do all the work ourselves, but alas we must rely on well-organzied slave labour for all but the most important of jobs. That being said, probably any rank-and-file Dawi Zharr troop in the army could direct a group of slaves well enough to forge some basic weapons and armour. Just think of a handful of Dawi Zharr directing several dozen slaves at a remote outpost or encampment far from the Plane of Zharr - I think the Dawi Zharr 'Masters' would be adept enough, through growing up in Dawi Zharr society, to have the slaves maintain a small forge to meet any needs they might have - even if those needs were just basic repairs or reforging swords and axes. Much better chance of this being a successful endeavour than it would be if the characters were switched and we were talking about an outpost from the Empire. In that case we'd have to expect they would need a blacksmith or someone fairly similar.
It would only be the few elite Hobgoblin slaves that closely serve the Daemonsmiths and Forgemasters that might have gained more experience and knowledge than the average individual. (still doesn't mean he wouldn't have the snot whipped out of him if he ever acted like he was more knowledgeable than the 'average Dawi Zharr' though!)
i think that it was only figure of speach, this part about the blacksmiths, it means that nation prepares for war if its blacksmiths (so blacksmiths from X) are making weapons.
Its like in an example:
"London Politicians are stedying their ranks against new legislation"
It doesnt mean that all Londoneers are politicians, more over i used term “London Politicians” so it implies there is a group among London politicians that is called “LP”.
if i wrote
"Londo politicians are stedying their ranks against new ligislation "
That would mean all politicians in London are preparing for political counteroffensive, or presumably preemptive operations.
And i dont think CD now blacksmithing, as with every skill it has to be used or one forgets it.
Besides if your a fighter then ur hands are busy with something else.
If “race” is presumed gifted in something it doesnt mean all members have the skill, it means that if a person is lets say a blacksmith then it is more skilled or whatever than other race practiseing the same skill.
As much as it pains me to agree with Gar, I’m pretty amazed that a discussion of this depth has been spun out of what is clearly only a vague, passing reference - and a misquoted one at that. Chaos Dwarfs are all blacksmiths in the same way that all Bretonnians are knights or all Northmen are Marauders. You might say, “The knights of Bretonnia mustered for war…” without implying that every single Bretonnian wears armour and rides a horse. It’s just a poetic way of saying, “these guys are around, and this is their general role as regards Chaos.”
So this has come back to what I said three weeks ago? haha.
Sort of - except I think they are actually going out to war (or why break out the golems and winged bull-shaped monsters bearing the mark of the Father of Darkness otherwise?), but “Blacksmiths of Chaos” is just a poetic way of describing the Chaos Dwarfs in general. That’s their role in the forces of Chaos - to build Daemonic Engines and make all the weapons and armour - but it doesn’t mean they’re all doing the forging. It’s like “Knights of Bretonnia” or “Imperial soldiers”: not every single thing in the army has to be that exact thing for the line to make sense. It’s just meant in a general sense.
Yeah, they just happen to be blacksmiths in general; they needn’t be using their blacksmith skills for the preparation.
Part of me is tempted to sticky this thread purely because Thommy and Gar seem to be agreeing with each other!