Thommy H:
sorry to say that but i doubt you anticipated combination i posted earlier onYour combination that involved misinterpreting rules? (Hatred doesn't apply to mounts, as specified in the Cavalry rules). Although, thinking about it, I think Thunderous Charge was supposed to be limited to Colossal Tauruses only (which is why a Lesser Taurus can't get it). The addition of "*" solves this problem nicely. No impact hits on Monstrous Cavalry.
aka_mythos:
I realize you want to make the engines a big upgradable thing to allow diversity of what it represents, but if you can’t squeeze it all in maybe you should consider narrowing the scope. Despite many instances where it would be appropriate in other Armybooks, it doesn’t occur. I think the closest thing is how the empire steam tank (still?) has or had the different variants to represent the 9 different ones that were ever built. That though was still constrained to a singular concept. That may be the key, break it down into smaller manageable sizes. Like pick 2 or 3 concepts and give them separate unit entries with distinct upgrade options. Like a Hellcannon that can become that triple barreled cannon someone converted. Or have Golems that can be upgrade to a couple of types. Things like boats and airships maybe better off left for the WHFB “apocalypse” style game, and could be included as an appendix in your book rather than part of the main body of rules.
Inquisitor:
Thommy H, this is incredible, while I havent finished leafing through it yet, and thus have no opinion regarding the exact rules, the polished nature of this, the attention to replicating the army book ‘feel’, you should be immensely proud of this piece of work.
I am curious, you mentioned typos, would you appreciate a full read through followed by a PM listing all the typos that could be found (if any) ?
Xander:
I was able to read a bunch just now.
To me, this book really entombs the creative development that has been evolving on CDO. It respects the weight of history and provides a really up-to-date perspective on the Dawi’Zharr. So far I have read the bestiary and some of the background, and I can’t wait to read more. It’s beautifully written as well. Top marks.
I even managed to get two of my units featured, my Hobgoblins and my Hellcannon. 
GRNDL:
GRNDL goes off to check out the Army Book, just to see if any of his stuff is in it.
(also, for the CD library - it can’t hurt to have)
Thommy H:
I realize you want to make the engines a big upgradable thing to allow diversity of what it represents, but if you can't squeeze it all in maybe you should consider narrowing the scope.It's okay - I've gotten in everything I want. I appreciate that the Upgrades allow for a possibly unacceptable level of variation, but that's kind of the draw. It's like the Warhammer version of 40K's old vehicle design rules. Which were sort of broken and unpopular...but whatever! Now that Daemonic Engines are always Rare, I think there's something to be said for all the options, because otherwise there's only a couple of Rare choices to pick from, so everyone is going to want to include a Daemonic Engine or too, and that's not going to limit anyone too much because you can build so many different kinds of unit with these rules.
slev:
Also, after trying really hard to make it work, I've abandoned the idea of multiple Engines in one unit. Too many of the Upgrades were only suitable for a single model and I couldn't find a way to make the entry work without loads of clunky language to explain which Upgrades were allowed. So screw it - you can just have one big Golem instead of three together like a unit of Ogres.You could always use:
Thommy H
Unit size Engines of less than X points may form a unit, no model in a unit may have an upgrade marked with an asterisk(*). All models in such a unit must have the same upgrades as each other. A single model may be the Master Engine and have an additional upgrade not possessed by the others.You can then asterisk anything that absolutely doesn't work in a unit, and stuff that probably won't work.
Anything with extra rules is not a hand weapon though, and hence doesn't let you have parry unless specifically stated. I understand where you're coming from and this is a little pedantic on my part, but with game rules, you want them as clear and unambiguous as possible.With the Cursed Axes, Immortals don't get Parry, as they have to use their special weapon. If you want them to have Parry saves when using their Cursed Axes you need to mention this in their Cursed Axe rules.Cursed Axes count as hand weapons, which is in fact mentioned in the rules. It just comes after Indomitable Defence which is a bit odd.
----Black Orcs: Choppas, strongly implied, but not stated, that they would gain a parry from using a shield with choppa. Probably needs clarifying.I think it says they're hand weapons, doesn't it? I'll check that though.
Thommy H
Yeah, again, I understood as I'll look at the spirit and wording of the rules in consort. However, as this is specifically disallowed in the current rules, it should really be addressed. Again, pedantry for rules clarity.Ghorth the Cruel: Demonic Familiar: Clarify that the double cast over-rides the rule that you can't. Same with the Simulacrum of Hashut magic item.I think that just by mentioning that you can cast twice it achieves this clarification, but I will look at the wording. Ghorth's rules got chopped up quite a bit when I tried to keep them on one page, so I'll make sure it all still makes sense.
Thommy H
Thanks for the feedback, Slev - a lot of food for thought there.NP!
Thommy H
Thommy H:
Anything with extra rules is not a hand weapon though, and hence doesn't let you have parry unless specifically stated.But they specifically count as hand weapons - and since the only advantage to hand weapons is the ability to parry, I don't see how it could be interpreted otherwise. What does the O&G FAQ say about this? Because I think I copied the exact wording for choppas from the O&G book.
slev:
I’ve no clue what the O&G FAQ says off-hand.
My concern here is that there’s something that potentially isn’t clear.
There is no such thing as “too clear” really.
Fallen246:
Having re-read this thoroughly and properly, I feel compelled to to say that initially I was like “Oh wow there’s alot of upgrades available to things”, but then I realised, there sort of has to be. I mean, with no “Official GW release” (rules, models or otherwise) every gamer has a much larger ability to interpret what they will about what exactly the army would have, what models they want to make for their army.
These extra options I think are a great way of keeping everyone’s interpretations as they were imagined, and to cover this so extensively I’m going to have to (once again) tip my big hat off to Thommy H. Wonderful job, and I intend to use these rules for my (to begin being assembled) Chaos Dwarf army.
Thommy H:
I've no clue what the O&G FAQ says off-hand.I get what you're saying, but I just don't know how to make it more clear than it is already! They count as hand weapons. So everything a hand weapon can do, so can they. That's what "counts as" means. To the best of my knowledge, everything else that counts as a hand weapon uses that same wording with no more clarification. I'd maybe be willing to make it really, really explicit if space wasn't already at a premium - I just physically don't have a whole lot of room on those pages to put in another sentence of clarifications.
My concern here is that there's something that potentially isn't clear.
There is no such thing as "too clear" really.
slev
Thommy H:
I’ve just noticed a really big error too - I think Winged for Tauruses should cost 65 points, not 15! This is me misinterpreting my original document. I remember it being confusing at the time, actually, and obviously it caught even me out. There may be a very slightly tweaked document coming tonight…
aka_mythos:
Fallen246, but that I think can be a weakness. If Thommy H has too much room for interpretation the scope of his work go beyond the magnitude of the official Armybook that its suppose to be in parity with.
Also, is there a way to download the whole book… when ever I try to save it, I’m only getting individual pages?
Thommy H:
No, I haven’t uploaded the PDF yet - I want to avoid having lots of different versions floating around while it’s still being tweaked. It’ll stay as an Issuu document so it can be viewed and feedback given and, when I’m happy that it’s stable, I’ll put up a download link for the PDF itself.
Fallen246:
Fallen246, but that I think can be a weakness. If Thommy H has too much room for interpretation the scope of his work go beyond the magnitude of the official Armybook that its suppose to be in parity with."The greatest amount of good for the greatest number of people."
aka_mythos
slev:
How about:I've no clue what the O&G FAQ says off-hand.I get what you're saying, but I just don't know how to make it more clear than it is already! They count as hand weapons. So everything a hand weapon can do, so can they. That's what "counts as" means. To the best of my knowledge, everything else that counts as a hand weapon uses that same wording with no more clarification. I'd maybe be willing to make it really, really explicit if space wasn't already at a premium - I just physically don't have a whole lot of room on those pages to put in another sentence of clarifications.
My concern here is that there's something that potentially isn't clear.
There is no such thing as "too clear" really.
slev
Thommy H
Cursed Axes count as Hand Weapons (including allowing a Parry save). In addition, their bearer gains +1S and Magical Attacks when wilding a Cursed axe.and:
These weapons, known as Chopas, count as Hand Weapons (including allowing a Parry save). In addition, their bearer gains +1S during the first round of close combat.
Thommy H:
Yeah…actually that would work fine. Damn you, Slev.
aka_mythos:
I’m just speaking from the stand point, that you have to acknowledge the potential issue, even if you decide its marginal.
I think there is a certain positive… the Indy GT list is basically a tournament list, this is more of a casual list. Its on Thommy whether he wants to emphasize that more casual aspect or not. I think the two list state, is something GW would benefit from, but it comes down to how you put it out there. Like Thommy might want to consider a side note box that lists how different combinations of upgrades are used to create a particular known or common Daemon Engine, such as the Hellcannon.
Verezzo:
I take my hat off to you Thommy :hat off - very good work - in my opinion much better than the ‘lets only make it work at tournament level Indy Book’. At our school club we can use fan-lists as long as we haven’t written them so I’m definitely going to be using this book there (but then my own book at home ;P!)
The only thing I would criticise would be the fact that if you upgrade Slaves to Sneaky Gits, you can’t upgrade them to have better weapons/armour than the base hand weapon - for that reason, Sneaky Gits at the moment would be a no from me just because Spears and Shields or Two Hand Weapons are so much better than just a Hand Weapon.
Anyway, of to make an Army List for my upcoming school tournament!
Thommy H:
aka_mythos: I totally get what you’re saying about the large number of Daemonic Upgrades, and the thought crossed my mind even as I was writing some of the new ones for this book that maybe I was going a bit far. But it’s worth bearing in mind that they’re pretty much all just giving access to pretty basic abilities. I don’t think they’re any more potentially abusive than all the new Common Magic Items - which you can give to a Doombull or an Ogre Tyrant for example. There’s nothing like Bloodline Powers, Virtues, Chaos Gifts or Spites in this list, so Upgrades are like that extra level of customisation. You can only give them to a Rare unit, a lot of them are mutually exclusive and, actually, the worst thing you can build (without Hothgar hanging around) is a Hellcannon.
Verezzo: Sneaky Gits can’t get spears, bows or shields, no - but who gives their Sneaky Gits any of those things? The option for two hand weapons isn’t in the Slave entry at all anyway, plus Sneaky Gits already get Fight in Extra Rank, which is the same as having spears. So it’s not as bad as it looks. I’m really flattered that you’ll be using my book anyway - make sure you let me know how it goes.