mattbird:
on a related note, what ideas were you hoping to see? i am interested on all ideas of chaos dwarfs, and you stories are second to none...
Method
Thommy's working on a new armybook, too. Top thread in the Rules Development section. It's more innovative, but it's obvious that the group writing this book is most interested in coming up with a safe list that is capable of clearing whatever administrative hurdles these tournaments have in place.
Gaixo
Hi, just read the book, and I think it's well put together. I like it. I really like the daemonic war machine rules, and will propose something like that to Kevin.
Having said that, it only confuses me more as to the point Thommy was trying to make. I don't see it as any more radical that what Kevin wrote.
But yeah, I'm not here to debate anything. If you want to make suggestions or give feedback to be incorporated into what we are doing, this isn't the best place to do it.
:cheers
mattbird:
The Rabble unit, is it a kinda slave unit or is it also Hobgoblins - I'm not sure, I get it right???
Can anyone help me with this one, please ? :)
Merchant
they are an all-purpose greenskin unit, meant to replace Goblins and Orcs, which were taken out. Hobbos are different.
mattbird:
Perhaps I need to understand why this list is being done better? You wanted something legal for indy tourneys, but presumabley you also want to get people excited enough about Chaos Dwarfs to use it, don't you? If so, I think you need to be bolder. But if all you want is to give existing Chaos Dwarf players some rules to use then, if anything, you've been too bold. Why change anything at all if your only requirment is legality and playability? Just get the tourneys to give Ravening Hordes (with some minor tweaks) their stamp of approval.
Thommy H
It started with the local GT organizers allowing Kevin's other (GW-published) lists to be legal in their tourneys. There are like a half dozen GT Gnoblar players as a result, for example. He had a new Chaos Dwarf list he did from a while back, which was never published. So from Gnoblars being accepted, the step to allow his Chaos Dwarf list to be fielded didn't seem a huge one.
From there, people who heard the idea liked it and got on board.
So there was no thought to "let's do a new list!", it was more of something that existed and could be refined to the point where people could field it as a normal, "legal", army in the tri-state area.
mattbird:
Thommy does have a fair point, if the point it just to have an official list that is playable an updated RH list would suffice.
This list however is clearly designed to encourage more people to put together lists than would normally want to enter with the RH list (updated or not). So it had to be different enough to be interesting, but not so radical that none of the current players would want to use it. It may not be exciting, but it is playable. It's a tough balance but I think you've done quite a good job. As far as fan lists go it's probably interesting to a lot more people than some, but not as interesting as others.
You will have to do the same with the background though so it makes sense. Nothing too radical, only an update of the WD Presents. So my fluff would not be appropriate really for this.
It may be worth pointing out that this list will have no impact on when or how CD are done, so if anyone was thinking it might it's only leading to obvious disappointment.
Grimstonefire
yup, this is pretty spot on.
:)
Slacker:
I played the list last night, some things that need to be tweaked-Obsidian Guard, Earthshaker, maybe some flavor to the warrior units-but it played well. Golems are awesome.
My battle report’s over on the 'mongers website.
Willmark:
Some of what from Thommy spoke of are my concerns as well as Grim’s points. I don’t see why using the PDF in tournaments is unacceptable now that the shackles are off in terms of disallowing them.
I’ve breezed through this and need to read it more in depth but at first glance it appears that Thommy’s assetment is spot on.
Groznit Goregut:
You can’t use all your old CD minis with the RH list. There are a number of types of units that aren’t listed in RH. This list is a good way to update RH to make it playable, though they changed the whole caster thing.
One question I have. Why can’t CD heroes take chaos armor? Lords can. Why not regular CD heroes?
Baggronor:
quasi-official
This is the worst thing it can be imo.
jolpis:
i think we should get black orcs back the chaos dwarfs created them
Ancre:
I see how everything is going to a kind of bound spell system for magic with CD's. The casters are priests that have bound spells (pwr lvl 7?), the demonsmith guys have demon weapons with bound items, and a number of magic items that are bound spells. So, there is no casting. I kind of like regular mage dwarfs. I think the rolling of a "1" is harsh. That means three "1's" will be pretty easy to roll. I see a lot of CD casters dying.
Why change the Chalice of Darkness to make it one time only?
Groznit Goregut
Precisely because of the bound spell magic system ? You con't need your power dice anymore if I read well the pdf file, so using it in your turn means removing 1D3 DD from your opponent's pool without any disadvantage on your side like it works actually.
But that's just a guess from my part :idea
Method:
basically i see the list as one that not only allows thr RH list, but allows 3rd edition models as well, i guess that is why, there is a desire to use it rather than the RH list…
Swissdictator:
Here are some of my thoughts:
Problems:
I don’t like the fact I have to use the Lord slot to have any magic. While I like the bound system, only two spells… even cast at 7 seems like light/medium magic these days. In the interest of fairness: there does seem to be a fair amount of bound spells, so I might be a bit quick to judge there.
Loss of Orcs. I liked having some Orc slaves running around. I can, grudgingly, understand no Black Orcs… I still think regular Orcs should still be in the list.
Common magic items: I initially missed the blurb, you might want to make it stand out a bit more. Not sure how, but it is easily passed over.
Bull Centaurs: What base size? Do they count as cavalry or infantry on cav bases? Do they use weapons/equipment as cav or infantry? This is something that should be clarified with a unit entry in the list.
Nuetral:
Hobgoblins a bit pricier, but this is in all honesty a fair change. It keeps them on par with the other Goblinoids.
Firestones: This is leaning towards a strength. The ability to take multiples is nice. It would be a very tempting choice for most lords. The point cost is high enough where if you take multiples you’re taking lighter weapons or going for mundane equipment (which itself isn’t horrible). I think it’s kinda nifty.
Earthshaker a little weaker, but in a way I can understand at least. I suspect opponents would not be as upset with seeing the Earthshaker…
Swivel Gun: It’s a nice addition to the list, and it has a nice point value. I’ll have to do some list building before I pass judgement. It’s a milder version of the Organ gun, but the points cost seem to reflect it.
Strengths:
For magic defense, you start off a bit wee bit better by default, allowing me to free those slots up for other characters. The trade off for being required to take a lord to have magic is you will also have a very healthy dispell pool.
Finally a mix of magic items to choose. Always a good thing to have variety.
Hobgob fast cav fixed: In other words, I don’t need to take 10+ of the guys. That is an improvement and you would see me fielding these guys a lot more often. Nice to see them lose fast cav if they take shields, cheaper bows, and access to spears too.
Blunderbuss: seem fairly priced, and also have a new use now that I can fire them at the risk of hitting my own guys… and with Rabble that has some interesting potential. I like the slight clarification on how they hit, and such. It would make certain spells, the Mark of Nurgle, etc effective against them.
Special choices. I’m loving the Obsidian Guard. A very nice solid unit. Between armor, and special rules, it fills the roll as a nice solid center unit especially considering all the fear running around these days.
Daemoneaters: This will allow some old school figures to return and give some other mobile units to the list.
Rules update: Nice to see the unyielding rule.
Better armor for the characters. Nice to see Chaos Armor for our lords and heroes. They now have the saves the Dwarven kind should have, and allow mundane equipment to do wonders for the Chaos Dwarfs. It also seems very fitting that CD should get Chaos armor considering the fluff behind it.
Bull Centaurs. Nice to see these as special, and a BC lord letting one count as core. That is pretty cool I have to say.
Sneaky Gits are useful again, as you’re not paying for a useless special rule… and now have a good one which is fitting for them.
Mixed Feelings:
Death Rocket. Bigger template, lower s, and mechanic. I think it has some nice potential though.
In all honesty, with only a minor tweaking (mostly clarifications) I think this could be a fun list. If I was going to a tournament that allowed it, I would be most likely use it. As it stands right now, none of the ones I am going to will allow it.
I will see if some friends will be willing to let me field the list for a friendly game or two. Mainly to get a full feel for the rules. Though to be honest, I will likely stick to the Ravening Hordes list unless some local tournaments start allowing it. Simply so I can improve my skills and not get used to this list.
dedwrekka:
One question I have. Why can't CD heroes take chaos armor? Lords can. Why not regular CD heroes?
Groznit Goregut
All the CD lords and heroes in the list have chaos armor, except the bull centaurs.
Swissdictator:
I played around with the list and came up with a fairly different army than I field in RH…
Overlord
Fire Stones
Black Hammer of Hashut
Helm of Azgorh
Shield
Slavemaster
Amulet of Hashut
Shield
23 Obsidian Guard (!!!)
FC, Shields (This unit will be really nasty with its size+fear, the Amulet, and a fighty lord. MR as it will draw magic)
Daemonsmith
Spellfeaster
Shield
24 Chaos Dwarf warriors
FC, Warbanner
Slavemaster
BSB
Armour of Gzarakh
Hexacon of Hashut
Shield
24 Chaos Dwarf Warriors
FC
18 Blunderbuss
Musician
18 Blunderbuss
Musician
Death Rocket
Death Rocket
20 Rabble w/ shields.
6 Hobgoblin wold riders
Bows, Musician
It would be a defensive list… the Death Rockets should prove fairly… shocking to an opponent. Cav hopefully march blocks or harasses the line as it comes it. Blunderbuss angle to narrow the front/refuse the flank. They serve to really violate enemy units. Hoping that I can get a decent advantage by the time they close.
Fighty lord, with a nice buff character in the Obsidian Guard should make that a tough unit. It’ll be the center of my line. Avoiding it will channel the opponent to my other warrior blocks and deadly BB fire.
Rabble for cannon fodder as needed. I will likely throw them ahead of the army, trying to draw in enemy units and possibly to get the unit to pop causing damage to the enemy.
The item on the Daemonsmith was chosen as he provides more magic defense via MR, but with a bound level 5 spell possibly destroying spells… it might be a long shot, but it’s worth trying.
This list was created based on my initial opinions. There are things I would probably switch up, but I think this could be a lethal list. I’m surprised I don’t have my usual Lord on Great Taurus. I might swap out a blunderbuss unit for more support units of greenskins and/or a warmachine.
5 Dispell Dice. Not bad. A couple big units with MR will help too. Plus any unit with a wizard might just get pummeled by my shooting…
Willmark:
basically i see the list as one that not only allows thr RH list, but allows 3rd edition models as well, i guess that is why, there is a desire to use it rather than the RH list..
Method
I get that and that is the problem in some ways to.
My contention has always been is that there is not that much that is wrong with the PDF list IMHO, merely the special rules that most armies have these days are missing; that is what is "wrong" with the PDF list. That hast been my contention since I joined CDO 2 1/2 years ago.
That's another issue I have with this fan list as it is I have said before: It caters to what a specific subset of chaos dwarf fans want and that's it. And when pointing that out the response that was offered up was:
"Well its more OFFICIAL then anything on this site, so there"... Well that's a fine how do you do...
For reference this is what I'm talking about and it still doesn't sit well with me:
https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/10692
...Whereas none of the stuff on this site is.
hashuts lil helper
This is no more official then direwolf, yet the implication is because this has a backing of a subset of American tournaments that everyone should back this because this has "backing" , whereas "nothing on this site does".
Its not like this horse hasn't been beaten to death on this site about a army book and this IMHO further clouds it.
Its also not that CDO isnt capable, far from it, we simply can't agree on what it should be and now this is increasing the issue even more, again IMO.
Sorry but that one comment is making me have an amazingly hard time backing this endeavor.
BTW: I get that CDO isnt official that isn't what my objections are about.
Thommy H:
Yeah, I’m in agreement with Willmark on that issue. As I keep saying, I applaud this endeavour and, honestly, this list is done better than most attempts at a Chaos Dwarf list that I’ve seen, but the issue is that I have seen so many - hell, I finally got 'round to uploading my own just last week - and what makes this one so much better than all the others?
In an objective sense, nothing. In fact, it’s a good deal less balanced and interesting than some that we have floating around out there. Part of this is an issue of time and effort. Grim and Revlid, for example, have probably been working on their lists, tweaking and changing every detail, for much longer than this list has existed. I submit that their lists are better than this one.
And yet, because of the “quasi-official” status of this, it’s getting perhaps a lot more attention than it deserves. Now, I’m not suggesting it should get less attention - I’m actually suggesting that everyone else’s lists should get more! - and I acknowledge that this is a more high profile effort than any other that has come before, but it’s galling for the rest of us to see it come in and sweep up all the interest.
Bottom line: this is a decent list and it may do decent things for the profile of Chaos Dwarfs, but just as a list without the whole “tourneys will let us use it” thing, there’s better stuff on this very site.
People put too much stock in what they believe is “official”, quite frankly.
Grimstonefire:
The main thing to remember here is that unless you plan on entering the Indy GT themselves this list does not matter at all.
mattbird:
And when pointing that out the response that was offered up was:"Well its more OFFICIAL then anything on this site, so there"... Well that's a fine how do you do...
Sorry but that one comment is making me have an amazingly hard time backing this endeavor.
Willmark
While I understand your position, I feel obligated to point out that the above quote is not real, and was never said, certainly not in those words.
mattbird:
Yeah, I'm in agreement with Willmark on that issue. As I keep saying, I applaud this endeavour and, honestly, this list is done better than most attempts at a Chaos Dwarf list that I've seen, but the issue is that I have seen so many - hell, I finally got 'round to uploading my own just last week - and what makes this one so much better than all the others?
In an objective sense, nothing. In fact, it's a good deal less balanced and interesting than some that we have floating around out there. Part of this is an issue of time and effort. Grim and Revlid, for example, have probably been working on their lists, tweaking and changing every detail, for much longer than this list has existed. I submit that their lists are better than this one.
And yet, because of the "quasi-official" status of this, it's getting perhaps a lot more attention than it deserves.Now, I'm not suggesting it should get less attention - I'm actually suggesting that everyone else's lists should get more! - and I acknowledge that this is a more high profile effort than any other that has come before, but it's galling for the rest of us to see it come in and sweep up all the interest.
Bottom line: this is a decent list and it may do decent things for the profile of Chaos Dwarfs, but just as a list without the whole "tourneys will let us use it" thing, there's better stuff on this very site.
People put too much stock in what they believe is "official", quite frankly.
Thommy H
All fair points, many of which I agree with. The project is what it is. I think the part of your statement I bolded is clearly the sticking point with many here, and an understandable one, were I in your shoes.
Bottom line is that as great and balanced and as thought out as some of the fan-made lists here are (and many are really good, which I say with all sincerity), how many can you field against opponents without prior agreement? That's the kind of acceptance we have a chance to shoot for.
I would propose that some of the effort spent here dismissing the attempt may be better spent in suggesting some of your good, thought out ideas to the community that
is moving ahead with this. How many here have forwarded Kevin Coleman their lists, to see what he thought of incorporating their ideas?
If you want to keep your ideas to yourself, that's fine. But how much interest can a purely fan-based, unofficial list ever garner? Where is it going? In the end, you'll just be making a list for yourself. Which you may be fine with, if just making the list, and sometimes finding someone who will play it with you is your ultimate goal.
Now, in the end, nothing may even come of all this. Our project may crash and burn.
But at least we are trying.