[Archive] Are the new army books a bit too much?

demonicprince20:

ok well it seems (to me anyway) the new books are making armies a bit too powerful.

they seem to give them amazing items (weapons and all that other good stuff) for cheap plus they give them units that are at times almost increadible

daemons get all these lovely gifts that is just tough as heck to beat

vampire counts get one guy that is simply an army himself

dark elves have the unkillable lord plus his unit of black guard.

also all these armies have just wow for special characters.

maybe it’s just me though not entirely sure

rabotak:

I guess its a bit too early to answer this question properly, IMO we´ll see in 2010 when all the armies are reworked for 7th ed. … but AFAIC greenskins are a bit too weak already, the rest is frightening at first but still fine so far

Kera foehunter:

well i havent bought a book since the new dwarf book

but they took more from away from the dwarfs

gw don’t like dwarfs of any type

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

we had a discussion about this on da warpath

it seems that GW wants all the armys the be realy powerful but they wanted this after they made the O&G book so we have to wait years intil were up to there standers :mad

AGPO:

theres always the option of using 6th ed rules if you don’t like the new ones. Personally I like the new books as I tend to focus on the background and colour sections more than the rules (I haven’t played seriously in years). In this respect they’ve taken huge leaps forward

Pyro Stick:

ok well it seems (to me anyway) the new books are making armies a bit to powerful.

they seem to give them amazing items (weapons and all that other good stuff) for cheap plus they give them units that are at times almost increadible

daemons get all these lovely gifts that is just tough as heck to beat

vampire counts get one guy that is simply an army himself

dark elves have the unkillable lord plus his unit of black guard.

also all these armies have just wow for special characters.

maybe it's just me though not entirely sure

demonicprince20
So basically you are saying that all the armies are balanced because they all have at least one over powered lord/character/item.

Not all the books will be balanced at the same time. Theres always going to be one or two armies that are slightly worse or better than others because they either have a newly updated book or a few year old book. Thats just the way things work with GW.

Personally i love it when a new book comes out, especially if its an army i collect as it means new models for the army. Sometimes it can go badly though with an army like Necrons when there is talk of removing the c'tan and getting rid of the best part about necron warriors, a glancing hit on a vehicle on the roll of 6.

I dont see what there is to gain by complainig about an army being too good. It just shows what direction GW are going to go with the rest of the army books. If anything, you should complain about a new army book making an army weak and the overall price of everything associated with GW being a rip off.

Khan!:

@ Pyro Stick:

Isn’t the balance creep the point though? There are something like fifteen different factions in Warhammer, all of which are playable in tournaments and in competitive social play, many of which tend to be unfinished before a new edition of the game comes out, right? Or if they are finished, they take years to get to the same level as the FIRST of the ‘new’ faction updates, which by the end of the cycle are themselves no longer as viable. So, as you say, there is no point at which all armies will be balanced at the same time. Which means that at no point ever is Warhammer itself ever balanced, since it depends on the interactions between different armies.

That doesn’t have to be a problem, but for some gamers balance is really important. I’m going to leap genres a bit here, but the reason for example that a game such as Starcraft is so incredibly popular (professionally ie) ten years after the fact is because of how it became so well balanced. I think the situation is similar regardless of genre shift. So the fact that Warhammer is NEVER balanced, due in part I think to the sheer amount of playable factions - Fifteen!! holy crap!! - can be a very valid criticism of the game.

I’m not sure it’s fair to just discard demonicprince20’s point completely just because you don’t agree with his desire for balance. Lack of balance is fine (and often fun, given fluff considerations and so on) for friendly play for certain people, but never on the tournament scene or among gamers who might be more interested in, for example, euro-style boardgaming (as I understand it - Settlers of Catan, Tigris and Euphrates, etc).

On to my opinion:

Since I never play Warhammer anymore (:() the balance creep isn’t a big deal for me, but it does make me much more critical of GW and the way they make their games. Especially after discovering simpler boardgaming in general and the products that other wargame companies make, like Privateer Press and Rackham, for which balance is a bigger consideration. Also, I used to love anything that GW ever did and thought that their games were perfect, and these days I am much more careful about giving praise that might be unwarranted.

Still, I do enjoy new models and new art, except when they are not good (or over-hyped) - ie (imo) new vampires, new metal goblins, new plastic chaos knights.

furrie:

@khan so you mean that to balance warhammer they need to bring out al the armies at the same time and reduce the armies to something like 5.

demonicprince20:

No pyro not just one unit. I mean usually they gave some combos that are simply to much. i mean I have been a judge at four tournaments. the top 10 armies ( out of 20) have been mostly daemons, dark elves, and vampire counts. I am not complaining I was just wondering if it was me that thought if the these new books are to powerful compared to most of the other armies.

AGPO:

Piratey chuckle Aarrr me hearties this discussion be goin on a while now. When the first Tau be released people say they be unbeatable, but cunnin’ ploys we find and give em a taste of our cutlass. Tis the same with every new book, they be unbeatable til we find ways to beat them. Mark my words, it be new tactics, not more balance that be needed :cheers

Kera foehunter:

AGPO i see you can talk the talk ! but change your tactic and become a pirate!!!

we do have rum and boar centaurs!!!

cornixt:

What they really need is to get GW to listen to the players and produce slight updates to the rules and stick them for free online and in stores. The main reason online gaming is so balanced is that they release lots of patches to balance things out. GW’s policy of not redoing the books (except the rare exception of DE) and then doing a half-hearted FAQ is terrible. Are there any major groups out there who have tried to come up with such updates?

Lord Zarkov:

Power creep is nothing new, it happens most editions (compare the last two in 6th to the first few), however the current rate of creeping seems to be a bit rediculous.

The problem IMO was when they gave HE ASF, which, while they needed a boost, was a little OTT. They then had to balance the later armies off that so you got a sharp in crease in power which is prehaps a little out of control. However at least it’s characterful, and if everyone’s getting it it’ll end up balanced enough when they get back to the beginning - as long as it doesn’t get worse. However DE and (from what I’ve heard) Chaos Warriors, a few characters aside, aren’t as bad so it seems to be under control.

It’s just a shame they tried to start the new edition with less creep (certainly that the last few 6th), and then ruined it on book 3 with a stupid special rule.

Doogle:

I think the books in general are okay, only problem I have is that everything seems to be going back to 3rd-4th edition Hero Hammer.

I have beat both the new Dark Elves and Vampires a pretty decent amount, but usually when they win it is their heros that pretty much overpower a majority of my army.

I just recently watched a single Dark Elf assassin claim over 1k points worth of Victory Points in a 2500 point match against the Beastmen, all by himself. The only way I have been able to beat him is by taking the Gem, challenging, stopping him from attacking, and hoping that I break his unit first round of combat.

Khan!:

@khan so you mean that to balance warhammer they need to bring out al the armies at the same time and reduce the armies to something like 5.

furrie
Yeah, pretty much. Ha! Followed by regular faqs and updates. But obviously, and like I said, our priorities don't have to be that way. Which ties into what AGPO piratically said:
Mark my words, it be new tactics, not more balance that be needed :cheers

AGPO
Which is precisely the other side of the argument, that the game isn't all about stats and math-hammer, so who cares how "balanced" it is? Also, since it's about having fun, everyone needs to find fun where they will.

I definitely agree with cornixt - more regular updates would go a long way to answering the balance criticism.

Merchant:

I like the armybook edition that was before this new one we are about the end up with, mostly because I’m really old fasion about the look and story - however I’ll like to see some new under-armies (such as the gnoblar or halfling army) in the new edition or some new figures to those who allready are there (such as the hellcannon)…

Kera foehunter:

good point merchant!! it would be cool to have gnobler or halflings army

even a 750 pt raiding party of eather group would be fine

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

well HE were made good 'cos nobody bought them and GW wanted better sale:P

demonicprince20:

good point merchant!! it would be cool to have gnobler or halflings army
even a 750 pt raiding party of eather group would be fine

Kera foehunter
I think they had a white dwarf to make a straight up gnoblar list. It was pretty awesome

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

I think they had a white dwarf to make a straight up gnoblar list. It was pretty awesome

demonicprince20
they did and i use it (well i put a few more units and items in there to make it that little bit better):)