Okay, I know that was boring and annoying, but I want you guys to know that I did think about this. It's not a pointless, unjustified, overpowered ability: it's exactly the same as a single re-roll, you just get a few because you're rolling more dice.
Thommy H
Sheesh, and you tell me not to use Mathhammer... ;P
Very well, though. It's good to see the maths behind the thing, although I do note that a 1/12 chance of a Misfire is half as likely as a Cannon or Stonethrower misfire. I suppose this is sort of made up for by the vicious Misfire table...
How can you dock me a point over some personal issue you have with Boar Centaurs? I dont care if you hate them. And whats this other issue you have with Snakebeard? I didnt make up his fluff, i just worked on what i read from an old White Dwarf. Chaos Dwarfs were originally Dwarfs so whats wrong with more Dwarfs converting over to Chaos Dwarfs over the years?
Pyro Stick
I don't mean to cause offence, Pyro, but this is a personal vote, so in fact I have every right to dock a point for issues I have with the fluff, one of these being the existance of Boar Centaurs. :~
The problem I have with Mr. Snakebeard is that Chaos Dwarfs aren't defected Dwarfs, they're a seperate culture. It would be like claiming an Imperial became a Norscan or Hung by turning to Chaos. Again, this is a clash between 3rd and 7th Edition fluff, and not a problem with you.
I thought it was pretty clear that it could only fire twice. It follows the rules for cannons (which can only fire once) with the exception that it can fire twice since it has two cannons. Trying to find a loophole making it be able to fire 4 times sounds like something CheTralfara would say.
Pyro Stick
It was pretty clear, and I probably shouldn't have brought it up - in all honesty, that wasn't what I docked those two points for.
It’s not mathhammer - it’s just probability Mathhammer is “if everyone rolled a 4, this is how many would die”. Probability is just measuring the chances of something happen against the chances of something else happening.
It’s good to see the maths behind the thing, although I do note that a 1/12 chance of a Misfire is half as likely as a Cannon or Stonethrower misfire. I suppose this is sort of made up for by the vicious Misfire table…
Yes, but bear in mind that the Daemonsmith is an optional upgrade that’s supposed to make it safer - like the Rune of Forging (or whatever it is). It’s not just safer in general - in fact, it’s so unsafe that you need a Champion-level guy hanging around to make it not explode within two turns!
My point is that “all those re-rolls” are actually the equivelant of just the one re-roll for a normal machine. The ability is not overpowered when you compare it to the inherent danger of just firing the thing at all. It’s “in scale” if you like.
The problem I have with Mr. Snakebeard is that Chaos Dwarfs aren’t defected Dwarfs, they’re a seperate culture. It would be like claiming an Imperial became a Norscan or Hung by turning to Chaos. Again, this is a clash between 3rd and 7th Edition fluff, and not a problem with you.
I think you have to judge Pyro’s entry in context then, as I did. There are going to be some conflicts of taste here - I personally have an issue with a couple of the entries in that I think the fluff doesn’t work at all and doesn’t fit any version of Chaos Dwarfs I’ve ever encountered, but when you have guys like yourself (who’ve written their own Chaos Dwarf background) and Pyro (who’s army is 3rd Edition-based), you have to consider these things in context.
Disclaimer: your two were not neccesarily the entries I didn’t enjoy the fluff for, I was just giving examples.
I’m going to concur with Skink. I withdrew my comments due to people taking it personally when this should be enjoyable. I’m actually appreciating the criticism because it will only make my creation better. On that note:
- I hadn’t thought about the move and shoot aspect of the flame cart. I would assume that since it’s being pulled, it could still move and shoot.
-Yes, the firing works just like the blunderbussers. It doesn’t curve or do anything crazy, it’s just a 12" wall of fire the width of the cart’s front.
-As far as the technology issue, you make a good point. My argument would be that all of the technology went into the weapons themselves, and they rely on the golems for magical protection/strength. Chaos Dwarfs, after all, have two strengths (magic and technology) that can be equally exploited.
-The points may be a little on the low side (I tried to imagine combining a chaos chariot with a scraplauncher and went from there). Don’t forget, however, that at it’s base points, the firing is only Strength 3, and due to the size and speed, it has the potential to be flanked easily by fast cavalry. That being said, it would probably be better if it started around 190 and went up from there.
ps. Thommy, I believe I already explained that my scoring had nothing to do with your ENGLISH but just how your fluff/rules compared with an actual GW entry in an Army Book. Technical English was fine, the style just wasn’t a 100% match, which is hard to do (I’m sure I had style issues as well).
Also on the size (I meant to put this earlier), I actually measured it for accuracy. I lined up 2 trolls, 1 chaos dwarf behind him to drive, 2 chaos dwarfs behind him (reasonably spaced) for flame belchers, and another chaos dwarf behind him (who would probably be on a higher platform) on the third belcher. It ended up being quite large, but accurate IMO. :hat off
Me, I’m not critiquing any of the entries. All seem to have things I like or might have a little different. I just try to respond to questions on my entry.
When I made my entry I had a few things I was trying to do and things I was staying away from.
Haves.
Simplicity - Rules that are close to other machines out there so you didn’t have to sit and explain it for hours.
Kills Things - Wanted something that could kill lots of enemy models
Fun - Something if your opponent saw it on the field he would not want to beat you over the head with a Model Case.
Have Nots
Demonic - This is a person preference but when I was told by GW that the Chaos Dwarfs could not take a Hell Cannon in their army I started with the theory that Chaos Army Generals aren’t stupid enough to rely on a war machine that could eat their own army.
Magical - Even though magical attacks would help against etherals I was staying away from that.
Heroes - It appears that my named character is a HERO but that’s like saying a Engineer upgrade to war machines that the Dwarfs get are Heros. THEY ARE NOT HEROS. Malakai is considered an engineer upgrade for the Hewer.
My second choice for a war machine was a Juggernaut that would have been way over the top. Think Iron Rhinoxes propelling it.
I agree with Ryanamandaanna. I noticed that the discussion degenerated suddenly, when it should be enjoyable instead. We all want to see our creations win, and we have 7 different ideas of what Chaos Dwarfs should look like. I think that our vote and criticism can’t be really impartial.
Usually in a competition partecipants aren’t allowed to vote. I think that we should stick to what Grimstonefire asked us: give an explanation of why we created our machines, where we found the inspiration, and answer question.
I agree with Ryanamandaanna. I noticed that the discussion degenerated suddenly, when it should be enjoyable instead. We all want to see our creations win, and we have 7 different ideas of what Chaos Dwarfs should look like. I think that our vote and criticism can't be really impartial.
Usually in a competition partecipants aren't allowed to vote. I think that we should stick to what Grimstonefire asked us: give an explanation of why we created our machines, where we found the inspiration, and answer question.
Skink
And that is what I thought I was doing.
I'm not going to a bashing battle with everyone, or giving points to everyone elses entries. That is subjective to the person posted their viewpoints.
We should explain the inspiration (which I included slightly in my fluff) and thoughts of why you did the things you did. We should also answer questions on rules we included.
Inspiration: The Hewer and Doom Diver from Warhammer, the real life inspirations were Cruise Missiles and Kamakzi Pilots of WWII
Thoughts: Since the Doom Diver had unlimited volunteers to fly I felt that my machine needed it too. There are always more Sneaky Gits than could be flown during the game.
Since the Hewer had unbreakable troops and a model carrying a repeater handgun I decided to drop that but add some fighters to defend it.
Had to have the ability to kill massed (ranked) troops. Even though the Hobgoblins have been the loyal lapdogs of the Chaos Dwarfs the are still wary of another Greenskin Rebellion from the common goblins, orcs and black orcs.
Not magical/demonic because some Chaos Dwarf followers of Hashut don't object to fire and steam powering machines they feel that Hashut might object to entrapping daemons. Either because Hashut distrusts the Daemonics powers or Hashut considers them friends.
As I already explained before, my inspiration came from the new Warriors of Chaos armybook. In there it is possible to read that Chaos Dwarfs “hammers the very essence of the Realm of Chaos itself” in their creations.
I started to wonder how can they do that, I mean, here we are having mortals that are able to gather power from a daemonic dimension, and even often (how many Chaos Armors can a forge create in a working day?)…
I think that this small insert in the Warriors of Chaos armybook expands Chaos Dwarfs background, and now we have a stronger identity for Dawi Zharr forges. I wanted to develop this point…
I know it wasn’t your inspiration skink, but I came up with a similar idea to yours a few years back. The main difference being that my version was a stargate (not my name) for moving troops. Reading your version brings back a lot of memories. There was a nasty misfire table, including all the troops mutating into a spawn!
I might as well leave this open until end of sunday, then launch the voting thread.
It would be nice to get a lot of people voting who have not participated in the discussion. If it’s mainly those who entered voting I think this will be a lot tighter than it should be.
Overall I think already we can call this a success. Although we did not have a huge number of entries, for those that took part there was a lot more interest than usual for an artisans! The next time we do a rules based artisans I think we will stay away from warmachines as they’re probably the hardest thing to balance correctly, and we’ve already done them.
Well, the thread has been viewed by more than 350 souls… So, I hope that we will gather a decent amount of votes
The concept of a daemon portal used as a teleport gate is good, nothing like that has never been done before (in warhammer fantasy i mean). I decided instead to focus on a more “destructive” point. Why don’t you post the rules of the “stargate” in the rules development section?
So does anyone that didnt enter have any feedback on the entries? Voting starts tomorrow (i think?) and not much has happened here. Are people just avoiding it so as not to offend anyone?
Yeah, I really don’t care anymore. The announcement of GH #9 stole its thunder I think. It would be nice to end one competition before starting another up.
Yeah, I really don't care anymore. The announcement of GH #9 stole its thunder I think. It would be nice to end one competition before starting another up.
GRNDL
True, and I do agree with you there. One at the time! Personally the artisan contest doesnt interest me much. Im more of a modeler/painter. But Ill try to read throu them and vote... :)
To try and get as many people entering as possible I intend to run the voting after the start of the next competition from now on. That way it’s continual competitions, rather than waiting for 10 day timed polls to close (and there could be more than one, look at the last GH).
I could bore you with the reasons I did not open this earlier today, but sufficed to say I was busy
I went for a 7 day timed poll in the end rather than 10 days. Hopefully this will be enough?
it might be great to do a last call When there 24 hours are left to do a last chance to vote to let people know !! i omost forgot already about this contest but this seams to be one of the biggest yet great job guys and staff
Mathhammer is “if everyone rolled a 4, this is how many would die”. Probability is just measuring the chances of something happen against the chances of something else happening.
