Negligible? You consider 20lbs of weight (minimum) negligible? Either you’ve been powerlifting or you don’t realise how much 20lbs is. I am NOT grasping at straws, just trying to get you to understand the criticism I am giving. I am agreeing with you, albeit to an extent, but it is agreement nonetheless. BCs ARE different, they do not get trained to fight on horseback etc, they live as they are. They have spent their entire lives dealing with their body type, thus giving them a greater degree of control over what they can do. I would say that HW+S MAYBE get the bonus and they should be allowed to hold 2HWs (not holding reigns or anything is my excuse for that), but cavalry rules for GWs (that is what I would compromise, not what I would like. I am prepared to always compromise if it makes sense). You are HEAVILY implying that I am trying to make the CDs overpowered, when in fact, I was stating, unit by unit, what makes sense for them. If you disagree with our speed element, you should say do not allow HGs to ride wolves (M9, faster than BCs) and I am saying still reduce the BCs movement (making them slower), but not quite as slow as you suggest. If BCs came with light armour (e.g. covering the Dwarf half) and could take barding as an upgrade (e.g. covers the bull half) I would say that the barding rule could reduce it. But, again, that is a compromise.
I am for keeping as few Special Rules as possible when creating these units. Given that across the board the Bull Centaurs come equipped with Great Weapons, how they handle having 2 hand weapons or shields should be negliable. Sure, I suppose that the Bull Centaur Lords and Heroes could buy magical equipment that put them in that predicament, but it is otherwise a moot point. And if the shield doesn’t provide a +2 in melee instead of a +1, I suppose that one could always consider that due to their size the enemy is able to aim for their vulnerable legs rather easily or something.
As for the Great Weapon nerf, the fix is built into the stats here… They get a +1S above the Chaos Dwarves in general so technically they already get a +2S above a mounted Chaos Dwarf with a hand weapon. Try to remember that effectively Bull Centaur are just an original way of making a basic level mounted Chaos Dwarf without making Chaos Dwarves are friendly with beasties like Humans, Elf and Goblin races.
Negligible? You consider 20lbs of weight (minimum) negligible?
Hashut's Blessing
---On a beastie likely weighing upwards of 2400lbs, yeah, that extra 20lbs is not exactly a big deal. Bulls can easily break 2400lbs each (thank the good Lord for Wikipedia). Warhorses push 2000lbs by themselves. Those are BIG critters.
They have spent their entire lives dealing with their body type, thus giving them a greater degree of control over what they can do.
Hashut's Blessing
---THAT is a good argument. The point of the cavalry rules, however, is to stop them from being overpowered more then representing any difficulties associated with using weapons on horseback. If we can't make them work without breaking the rules, then I will be happy to go ahead and make Bull Centaurs an exception.
You are HEAVILY implying that I am trying to make the CDs overpowered, when in fact, I was stating, unit by unit, what makes sense for them.
Hashut's Blessing
---Whoa, backpedal a bit there. I'm the one advocating Toughness 5 after all. In any case, nothing is overpowered if the price is right. I would have a problem if they got significantly tougher, kept their 2 Attacks, got the full +2 Strength from great weapons AND cost 25pts/models.
If you disagree with our speed element, you should say do not allow HGs to ride wolves (M9, faster than BCs) and I am saying still reduce the BCs movement (making them slower), but not quite as slow as you suggest.
Hashut's Blessing
---It's not that there cannot be any fast elements in the army, or even that Bull Centaurs need to be really slow. My problem is that the Chaos Dwarfs have a lot of tactical flexibility and I see a chance to cut that down a bit in a characterful way, without nerfing the unit.
If BCs came with light armour (e.g. covering the Dwarf half) and could take barding as an upgrade (e.g. covers the bull half) I would say that the barding rule could reduce it. But, again, that is a compromise.
Hashut's Blessing
---A solid suggestion. Adding to the armor save, even bringing it to 3+ without the shield, is entirely within the realm of possibility. Bull Centaurs will need to be rock hard if they are going to end up with Movement 6, and I think that this is entirely reasonable and characterful for Dwarf cavalry.
First of all, before I comment at all, I would like very much to apologise to you itcamefromthedeep. I was in an incredibly foul mood due to reasons I’d rather not explain on the internet and so said things in a slightly less than kind manner. Please forgive me (that has been playing on my mind all day).
Your first point about my 20lbs argument is solid. I kind of was thinking in terms of humans. Whoopsy, apologies there! I understand your second point and don’t mind them having +1S GWs, just as long as they are allowed to use 2HWs. Makes sense after all. The third point was me writing in a foul mood and should be ignored entirely. 4th, I agree, but am not sure that M6 is right. It feels a little weird. Perhaps reduce wolves to M8 and BCs to M7. Wolves being slower because HGs are heavier… But, I’m happy to concede to general consesnus. I think they should be M7 with the option of Barding/Heavy Armour. Or just say that the Heavy Armour counts as Barding. They come with shields and LA automatically perhaps?
Perhaps reduce wolves to M8 and BCs to M7. Wolves being slower because HGs are heavier... But, I'm happy to concede to general consesnus. I think they should be M7 with the option of Barding/Heavy Armour. Or just say that the Heavy Armour counts as Barding. They come with shields and LA automatically perhaps?
Hashut's Blessing
Don't reduce movement on the Hobgoblins. With these updated stats you are still paying for a human and getting a human with -1Ld and Animosity (or something similar) and no Lance Formation or Detachments to play with. Getting +1M on mounts and other such small benefits is all that could make them worth the cost.
First of all, before I comment at all, I would like very much to apologise to you itcamefromthedeep.
Hashut's Blessing
---Forgiven and forgotten.
4th, I agree, but am not sure that M6 is right.
Hashut's Blessing
---Perhaps I could phrase it more clearly. If you accept that a Bull Centaur is slower then a horse, then it follows that a Bull Centaur covered in armor should be slower then a barded warhorse (which has M7). Slower then M7 is obviously M6, but I would not really like them to suffer a 2D6 flee/pursuit move, so I made a special rule to allow them the 3D6 move.
They come with shields and LA automatically perhaps?
Hashut's Blessing
---Mandatory equipment is not a great idea. With armor its fine, but shields should be optional
---Wolves should not be faster than horses, in any army list. I don't care what excuse you use, but M9 appears far too often in cavalry.
So, if they come with Heavy Armour, they are M6, if they come with LA that can be uprgrdaed with barding, they are M7 (but at -1 for barding…). Think that would work better? Or just come with HA and be M6? I also agree with the special rule (although if they have the barding option, would it be a special rule? I am pondering to myself…). Wolves are able to run through underbrush better than horses, so if anything, they should have the same movement, but move through woods, however, I doubt there are many woods where the HGs live and so the riders wouldn’t have that rule (maybe getting knocked off by branches and the like). Make them cheaper than a human then, but have M8. It just makes sense…
—Centigors are cavalry as defined in the basic rule book. They get no advantage in survivability over their counterparts on foot. Centigors get a trample attack, but I believe that only works on the charge. Centigors have no Hero or Lord equivalent.
—The big thing to note is that Centigors are no tougher than Gors. I really do not like the idea keeping the glass cannon Bull Centaurs, because that just does not make sense to me.