As you all probably know, Batallion Boxes are the $150 box sets that are supposedly a great addition to ones army, or as a great starting point.
Frankly, half of the time I’m inclined to disagree. Games Workshop has this odd tendency of chucking in a unit that is either loved or hated, meaning only half of the army-collectors will get to make a saving, or they don’t give you all that much value for what you get. Because of this, I’ve decided to make a thread detailing what’s in each box, what I think is wrong with it, and what the box should have (or rather why it’s a good box set). Despite the possibility that nobody gives a stuff
Anywho, proceeding alphabetically, the Batallion Boxes!:
Beasts of Chaos Batallion
(This army has no Batalllion box…)
Sadly, this is true. And quite likely due to the lack of Beastmen plastics.
To remedy this (using current releases) I would suggest the box contain:
This army has a similar problem of nothing but it’s core choices being plastic. And frankly for any player who wants to use Bretonnians for a good-aligned all-mounted force will find themselves ripped off by this. Buying everything bar the pegasus knights is $150AUD anyways, so a free $17AUD (approximately) Pegasus Knight is bull, since you’d have to buy another box of them for $50AUD anyways, or have a general who is too fast for the rest of the army.
Plastic Questing Knights would be a good release.
To remedy this (using current releases) I would suggest the box contain:
- (As is, but rather than one Pegasus Knight a regiment of three at least so they can be used properly.
Chaos Daemons Batallion
(This army has no Batalllion box… and since if it did it’d be a major power Batallion Box I can’t really be blaming GW for not making one. I’m skipping it too.)
Chaos Dwarves Batallion
(This army has no Batalllion box… yet… [unless you guys consider BFSP as a cheaper yet-more-effort-required Batallion Box])
To remedy this (using non-current releases [things to be released I think]) I would suggest the box contain:
- Chaos Dwarf Warrior regiment (16-strong), equippable with hand weapons + shields/great weapons
- Chaos Dwarf Marksmen regiment (16-strong), equippable with handguns/blunderbusses/crossbows (maybe)
- Hobgoblin Regiment (20 strong) equippable ith hand weapons/spears and shields optional or equippable with bows.
- Hobgoblin Wolf Riders unit OR Bull Centaurs unit.
As a DE player, this set I find most annoying. Frankly, you get given only ten Corsairs which, even if I did like the models, is an uneffectively small size for such a unit. Additionally, they give you 12 spearmen despite their low cost and strength in numbers (due to their low cost) and 16 crossbowmen, which is slightly annoying as that means you have a unit of 10-16 crossbowmen, no choice of mutliple units. Only saves you 35+35+50+(50-25% of 50)-150 (box price)= $7.50 saving. Oh wow. Now minus that value by considering the fact that your standard DE regiments are pre-set and you lose say 16 spearmen arms and 12 crossbowmen arms and basically you lose on buying this overall.
Cold One Knights are nice though.
To remedy this (using current releases) I would suggest the box contain:
- (As is, but make the 12 spearmen and 16 crossbowmen into 30 or so spearmen-crossbowmen models (as per the normal regiment boxes) and chuck in say another 5-10 Corsairs).
Using my mathematical skills, this box set basically gives you three standard boxes plus a bonus 8 warriors for $15 saving you only ten dollars. Still, slightly better than some other box sets.
To remedy this (using current releases) I would suggest the box contain:
- (As is I suppose, but maybe swap the bonus warriors with a box of Dwarf Miners
Good actually. Even if I don’t like Silver Helms. The equivalent of three $50 boxes and a $35 bolt thrower thrown in free. Awesome. No remedy needed. Good job Games Workshop.
Equivalent of three $50 boxes plus $25 worth (8) of additional Saurus. However, this does sorta restrict variety OR encourages it conversely, by giving the player the option of having a saurus unit with spears + shields and a saurus unit with hand weapons + shields. Still bonus. Yay. No Remedy given.
$190 of stuff for $150, saves you $40. However, this box includes spier riders, night goblins, orc boys and a chariot. Unless you’re making a massive mixed greenskin horde, this batallion box set is a bummer.
To remedy this (using current releases) I would suggest the box be renamed as “Slaves of the CD” and be done with it.
Three $50 boxes plus 8 free glade guard so saves you $25. Cool beans here too.
Well, oddly, and unintentionally the bottom half of the page has the best deals. Reglar Dwarves being the mid-point I suppose. Anywho, that’s my review, I’m done now
I wish the blokes at GW who put the battalion boxes together occasionally took a look at what each particular army takes. I can’t speak for other armies, but what Orc and Goblin general takes minimum-number blocks of goblins and orcs? They’re most effective in big blocks, what use do I have for 20 night goblins except as a speedbump for somebody’s Chaos Warriors or elves?
I suppose ditto that for the core choices of other armies? Does anyone take 12-man block of elves/dwarves/etc? I’m not sure.
As well, you’ve got to watch the battalion boxes carefully… I got the 6th ed Orc and Goblin battalion, and felt particularly ripped off since the arrer boys are the crappy 2-piece sculpts, and the orc warriors were the static pose, arms-already-attached ones. Sorry, but I don’t think that’s worth $90… In the same vein, I wouldn’t be surprised if the spider riders are the BFSP ones…
I say $175 for $150 in these Batallion box sets is the minimum bargain you should receive. (Especially since Ogre Kingdoms and Tomb Kings give you $200 of stuff for $150!!!).
If they can afford that with half the sets, why the hell can’t the afford it with the rest? It’s stupid and nonsensical.
Battallion boxes, just like army boxes are for those wishing to bulk up an army quickly. They are not for those who have a specific need in their army. There is no way GW can have a box for every persons needs or wants out there. It’s just impossible, so, they package the most common troops (liked or not) in those boxes and put a price on it.
Look in the long run, playing with toy soldiers is a not a need but rather a luxury and as such, the price will be luxurious. meaning, if it gets too expensive to do the hobby, you are either better off, saving your money for something else, or saving your money a bit longer to get the GW stuff you like. I can’t put it any simpler. I believe only one guy ever marketed a game to those who couldn’t afford much… It was called Monopoly and it allowed people to buy property with play money, to feel that at least in a game they could be wealthy…
Bretonnia: Repacking of previous box, lost 2 Pegs, gained 4 men-at-arms for a unit of 20. EPIC FAIL for Bretonnia players. No more �ober Pegasi units. EPIC WIN for opponents. At least the 8 knights makes a good lance of 9 with a character.
I disagree about Questing Knights, as they are now they are a sub-par choice in general and would tank this battalion to unseen levels.
High Elves: EPIC FAIL. None of the units in the box are useful and certainly not in the numbers present. Except the Boltthorwer. Silver Helms? essentially useless and in a unit if 8 to boot, even more useless. 16 Spears? Awkward size, 15 or 20 would be right. 16 archers? utterly useless. The only reason you’d buy this is because you must have some infantry and can fiddle a bit to make archers into spearmen or vice versa.
Dark Elves: If they have left out the sprues to make all models either spearmen or crossbowmen I’d agree that’s stupid, though admittedly you are most likely to want another warrior box anyway and it will provide you enough spare parts to make all crossbows or spearmen from battalion + box. This battallion at least provides you with decent units and can be combined with the other boxes effectively. Corsairs as I see are bit, meh, but from what I gather one wouldn’t want a large unit of them anyway. I’d say one should consider them a source of parts to make heroes and or even other choices. It seems strange though about the number of models they say you can make. I’m too lazy to open my shrinkwrapped 4th box of warriors just to check how the parts are spread on the sprues though. All in all it actually contains units the army can use, though DE are so varied it is perfectly possible to make a super good army completely without this battalion.
Dwarfs: From a versatility perspective one of the best. You can and will use all of the models form this box. The numbers are a bit odd, but for my money I just see it as 40 odd warriors that can be armed in a various amount of ways. Miners would ruin that IMHO. Not everyone wants/needs those.
Empire: Not bad. Some savings, though 8 knights are an awkward number. 20 infantry is a little light though, and you wouldn’t find much use from the battalion unless you plan to go knight heavy, e.g. 2 batts would saddle you with a massive 16 knights, and that’s not an army anymore but a knightly order theme… However you get loads of bits along with the kits so can quite easily fudge the composition. 1 battalion is good, 2 won’t do as much for you as 1.
Lizardmen: I agree, it is pretty good, though 8 cavalry again is kinda meh. At least you save some and get plenty of models to fool around with.
Ogres: Yeah OK is OK. Gnoblars are a bit of a dud, but from an army standpoint they do have their uses (only feasible way for rankbonus). And you can always make them into trappers instead… it isn’t as bad as it would seem on the face of it.
Orcs: Is actually better than you give it credit for. All of the models are the “real” ones not the BFSP ones (admittedly said without owning the kit, but noone’s complained in my club). Finally 20 and not 16 or 19 Orcs. Spider riders are actually a unit much used and Night goblins are fairly decent with netters and fanatics. I guess only the chariot could be considered in question really. But from a general mixed approach this isn’t that bad a mix actually.
Skaven: Tsk. Missing an existing battalion I must seriously doubt your analysis now:P Plenty of rats so it’s all good. Plague monks aren’t for everybody though. The big problem is the 2 Rat Ogres and half a Giant Rat squad you get. Not very useful at all. Could be improved. But an excellent saving by my hasty calculation.
Tomb Kings: You get plenty and you can build most of what you would want. 8 cav is an awkward size still. But no real duds I’d say.
Vampire Counts: A good mix, but no one will want to have all of the three core infantry. If one were to hope for a more balanced approach from VC players this isn’t too bad I guess.
WoC: Yup it is good. 12 warriors are so-so but the mix is excellent otherwise, as good as you could hope for I suppose.
Wood Elves: It isn’t bad at all, though I don’t see people buying more than 1. You’d rather hit more dryads and the metal kits before another of these.
Non-existing battalions: Deamons?, 10 Demonettes, 10 Bloodletters but what else? Plastic Flamers and Screamers to royally screw opponents? A tricky box. It is fairly ironic that Nettes and Letters are the least popular core infantry. Beastmen?, Herd, Herd, Bestigors, Minotaurs maybe by the rumours. Chariot instead of 1 herd would be sweet and mean I could actually purchase one. Biggest problem is the herd kit and the 3 gors per 2 ungors ratio. Without remodelling the herd plastics you can’t increase the number of ungors. Tough to call. Chaos Dwarfs? Sadly I’m not even going to try and guess.
All battalions: multiples of 4 in way too many boxes. An unfortunate hang-over from 6th->7th. The 8 model cav units are very unfortunate in most battalions. EDIT (again): and totally agree with what T_H_T says. In too many case the battalions shouldn’t be considered a way of saving money. I.e. only looking at how much money you “save” isn’t a good way to consider battalions. The other extreme are the spearheads with only the new units. Not exactly optimal either. Except for the HE one that they refused to sell in stores :o
Think about it Batallions are just for starters and I think all have 500pt in there now 500pt is a good start right? so they now have to think what basic modals can thay use well first plastic then troops then a special so really and all you need then is a lord
So why is every one complaining and snowblizz what’s wrong with 8 knights?
Think about it Batallions are just for starters and I think all have 500pt in there now 500pt is a good start right? so they now have to think what basic modals can thay use well first plastic then troops then a special so really and all you need then is a lord
So why is every one complaining and snowblizz what's wrong with 8 knights?
Godbob and his jolly rogers
The point values vary very much from box to box. Elite armies get more points, horde armies less. I have once pointed it up for all the boxes but I can no longer find it.
8 is a very difficult number for cavalry. If you want a large unit for ranks then 10 is what you need. Normally cav is only taken in units of 5-6, 7 I see sometimes but it gets unwieldy on the table top and 8 in a line is pretty much unable to manoeuvre. Taking 5+3 or 4+4 is obviously a possibility but if you face bolt throwers or cannons that second rank is actually more of a liability than benefit. 8 means you can't even make 2 units of 5 should you so choose. There's just almost no situations where 8 is good number of cavalry, you'd almsot always be looking for more or less.
The point values vary very much from box to box. Elite armies get more points, horde armies less. I have once pointed it up for all the boxes but I can no longer find it.
snowblizz
Oh do they sorry I haven't counted
8 is a very difficult number for cavalry. If you want a large unit for ranks then 10 is what you need. Normally cav is only taken in units of 5-6, 7 I see sometimes but it gets unwieldy on the table top and 8 in a line is pretty much unable to manoeuvre. Taking 5+3 or 4+4 is obviously a possibility but if you face bolt throwers or cannons that second rank is actually more of a liability than benefit. 8 means you can't even make 2 units of 5 should you so choose. There's just almost no situations where 8 is good number of cavalry, you'd almsot always be looking for more or less.
snowblizz
Well I think that 8 is a good number for a small game but as the games get bigger then yes bigger units of cavalry are needed
First up, to Snowblizz’s analysis of the High Elves Box I have to agree on the fact that Silver Helms suck, especially considering Dragon Princes are available to High Elves… even if they are metal models and cost more.
And the whole thing about awkward sized units though? Most boxed sets come with 16 models anyways, which is pretty much GWs way of ensuring they can sell another box if you want two units of something. So it’s not that bad when looked at from the whole.
Additionally, High Elf spearmen have martial prowess, granting them the ability to fight in an additional rank to the already existing bonus from their spears. So Since you get rank bonuses for having four or more models per rank your first three ranks of four are purely for offense, whilst your last rank is to take hits.
Now, in regards to your problem with 8 member cavalry units, I actually frequently take them, with 2 ranks of 4, (especially in my WoC army). Heavy Cavalry units have this tendency of not going down (one match of mine I recall my chaos knights having been surrounded by two heroes, three units of empire spearmen and a griffon and lasting two full turns before breaking in the third due to casualties) and considering their movement I can get them to charge on the second turn, hitting usually with both ranks full and thus granting me a rank bonus in addition to my (usually) effective charge which (usually) causes my opponent’s unit to break and get run down.
And especially in a WoC army, heroes get 50x50 based mounts, so 8 knights as well makes for a 3+big guy first rank and five member rear rank anyways.
Lastly, point values coming soon, except I can’t get access to the Tomb Kings unit prices… Expect them all tomorrow maybe?
First up, to Snowblizz's analysis of the High Elves Box I have to agree on the fact that Silver Helms suck, especially considering Dragon Princes are available to High Elves... even if they are metal models and cost more.
And the whole thing about awkward sized units though? Most boxed sets come with 16 models anyways, which is pretty much GWs way of ensuring they can sell another box if you want two units of something. So it's not that bad when looked at from the whole.
Additionally, High Elf spearmen have martial prowess, granting them the ability to fight in an additional rank to the already existing bonus from their spears. So Since you get rank bonuses for having four or more models per rank your first three ranks of four are purely for offense, whilst your last rank is to take hits.
Fallen246
Most boxes come with multiples of 4 because they are old and not planned for 7th ed 5 wide ranks. GW don't do conspiracies, they are too dumb to pull it off. All *new* boxes are now multiples of 5. Even the long suffering Orc boyz.
However, did you just do a typo or what? Because you make no sense at all. 16 models give ranks in 5+5+5+1 formation. Two points of rank-bonus, 15 models who can fight (HE spears). Only 2 casualties to loose the "first" rank. I wouldn't call that lone elf a "rank for taking hits".
Now, in regards to your problem with 8 member cavalry units, I actually frequently take them, with 2 ranks of 4, (especially in my WoC army). Heavy Cavalry units have this tendency of not going down (one match of mine I recall my chaos knights having been surrounded by two heroes, three units of empire spearmen and a griffon and lasting two full turns before breaking in the third due to casualties) and considering their movement I can get them to charge on the second turn, hitting usually with both ranks full and thus granting me a rank bonus in addition to my (usually) effective charge which (usually) causes my opponent's unit to break and get run down.
And especially in a WoC army, heroes get 50x50 based mounts, so 8 knights as well makes for a 3+big guy first rank and five member rear rank anyways.
Fallen246
Unfortunately you might not be entirely correct. The rules say you need 5 *models* not "4 models that take the space of 5". I don't like to argue this point but it is hard to get around especially in serous circles. You'd need 4 knights+ character+ 5 knights to make a rank happen.
Of course you have one of the few units that might make sense in a large formation, Chaos Knights can fight fairly effectively to the side (you play Khorne maybe?) as could Blood Knights, though they are still only 2 casualties from loosing the combat. However Bretonnian or Empire Knights are almost certainly gone if hit in the side. A larger flank (from the deeper formation) can even be a liability. I took down a 10 man Inner circle knight unit 2 weeks ago by flanking it with Dragon Ogres, a Beastman Chariot *and* a giant. Of course the giant almost lost me the combat with a Yell and Bawl, but that's beside the point. Even Chaos Knights wouldn't have held when presenting such an flank.
Lastly, point values coming soon, except I can't get access to the Tomb Kings unit prices... Expect them all tomorrow maybe?
Fallen246
I can point up TK if you want. I'm just too lazy to do them all again.
Here my brother taught me ranks were 4 wide to be counted. What the shiznit?
Unfortunately you might not be entirely correct. The rules say you need 5 models not “4 models that take the space of 5”. I don’t like to argue this point but it is hard to get around especially in serous circles. You’d need 4 knights+ character+ 5 knights to make a rank happen.
snowblizz
That… just seems unecessarily awkward. But rules wise it also makes alot of sense. I guess I was just (foolishly) assuming that this kind of thing was similar in a sense to units like the Slann Mage priest filling ranks (although they do get their own special mention about that). Crap. I think I should not analyse anything anymore without more thought…
I can point up TK if you want. I’m just too lazy to do them all again.
snowblizz
That would be appreciated. But I don’t think I am going to point value them all up today since last night was New Years and I’m still suffering the after effects… plus Fallout 3 is awesome and I want to play it alot today.
Oh wow.
Here my brother taught me ranks were 4 wide to be counted. What the shiznit?
Fallen246
7th edition happened. Ranks must now be 5 models wide to count.
Unfortunately you might not be entirely correct. The rules say you need 5 *models* not "4 models that take the space of 5". I don't like to argue this point but it is hard to get around especially in serous circles. You'd need 4 knights+ character+ 5 knights to make a rank happen.
snowblizz
That... just seems unecessarily awkward. But rules wise it also makes alot of sense. I guess I was just (foolishly) assuming that this kind of thing was similar in a sense to units like the Slann Mage priest filling ranks (although they do get their own special mention about that). Crap. I think I should not analyse anything anymore without more thought...
Fallen246
Agreed, it is honestly a travesty that they managed to put out 7th edition and not include base size, and unit strength for all those models that aren't quite what they seem. Nor did they solve the large base in smaller base units, despite the need for a clarification under 6th ed.
Many people do follow the 6th edition guidelines about this, but there is a select few models that sort of "brake" this, among others the Corpse Cart as you can make it count as 6 Grave Guard models which easily buys it points back just by doing that.
And especially the new Chaos armies are making things incredibly silly, monster-based cavalry steeds? What the blip where they thinking?
I can point up TK if you want. I'm just too lazy to do them all again.
snowblizz
That would be appreciated. But I don't think I am going to point value them all up today since last night was New Years and I'm still suffering the after effects... plus Fallout 3 is awesome and I want to play it alot today.
Fallen246
Tsk tsk. And you are like 12 hours ahead of me... you should be all sobered up by now. :cheers
- Bretonnian Lord w/ Lance, shield, Questing Vow, and Royal Pegasus = 177
- 8 Knights of the Realm w/ FC = 216
- 20 Men-at-arms w/ FC = 127
- 16 Skirmishing Peasant Bowmen w/ FC and braziers 153
TOTAL = 673
(I am aware that in a force this small a Lord choice is illegal, but I’m attempting to display how the Batallion Box can be used rather than how it stands individually).
- 24 Longbeard Scouts w/ shields, great weapons, throwing axes and FC = 409
- Organ Gun = 120
- 16 Thunderers w/ Shields and FC = 265
OR
- 16 Quareller-Rangers w/ shields, great weapons and FC = 265
TOTAL = 794
(As with Bretonnians, having more Longbeard regiments than warriors is illegal, but I am yet again calculating the maximum amount of points that can be used up from the Batallion Box)
(Also, as warrior regiments are available to be assembled as longbeards I’m simply assuming the batallion box longbeards may also be assembled as such)
I would say a more likely configuration than Longbeard Scouts would be 24 Longbeards, Shields, FC = 313 16 Thunderers, Shields, FC = 265 Canon w/ Rune of Forging (because you would always take that) or Organ Gun = 140/120 roughly 718 point total I could also see 20 Longbeards, 10 Thunderers and 10 Quarrelers with Cannon/Organ gun roughly 700 points I prefer to go with that which is more likely, rather than the absolute maximum as few people are likely to want to take that configuration anyway.
Tomb Kings: 3 chariots, FC = 170 20 Skeletons, Shields, LA, Spears, FC = 225 12 Skeleton Archers = 96 8 Heavy skeleton horse, FC = 163 Total: 654 points
I can do a couple more if you’d like. Decided I’ll throw in some bonus ones:
Vampire Counts: 20 Skeleton Warriors, FC = 180 10 Ghouls, Champ = 88 20 Zombies = 80 Corpse Cart, with 1 upgrade = 100 Total 448 points
Skaven: 20 Clanrats, LA,SH, FC = 125 20 Clanrats, LA,SH, Spears, FC = 145 20 Plague Monk, xHW, FC = 185 2 Rat Ogres w Packmaster = 100 6 Giant Rats w Packmaster = 30 Total 585 points
BTW, something that came up on another forum while discussing the DE battalion. Apparently there’s 20 Corsairs in the box. At least the UK site says so and it would fit with the pictures.
I wish the blokes at GW who put the battalion boxes together occasionally took a look at what each particular army takes. I can't speak for other armies, but what Orc and Goblin general takes minimum-number blocks of goblins and orcs? They're most effective in big blocks, what use do I have for 20 night goblins except as a speedbump for somebody's Chaos Warriors or elves?
I suppose ditto that for the core choices of other armies? Does anyone take 12-man block of elves/dwarves/etc? I'm not sure.
As well, you've got to watch the battalion boxes carefully... I got the 6th ed Orc and Goblin battalion, and felt particularly ripped off since the arrer boys are the crappy 2-piece sculpts, and the orc warriors were the static pose, arms-already-attached ones. Sorry, but I don't think that's worth $90... In the same vein, I wouldn't be surprised if the spider riders are the BFSP ones...
Anyways, that's my take on it...
Onii One Orc
Back in 6th ed, those orcs were the same sculpts used in the starter box set, and at the time they were released they were some of the only sculpts available for the orcs. Though I consider the one-piece orcs with choppas to be some of the most dynamic ones available (even the multi part kits cant get that rowdy without converting). Though if you really didn't think they were worth it, you probably should have paind more attention to the box's contents before purchase.
As to the unit choices in battalion boxes, they're released as speed starts for an army, and will show the maximum number of units that can be made usually. The number in each unit is based around the number provided in the unit boxes, which itself is based off of slightly old rules (ie they tend to appear in numbers that were more useful when it was 4 per rank instead of 5).
Basing boxes around what certain people may or may not play with is a bit too personalized, and certainly involves over-taxing the company psychics, mind readers, and fortune tellers, to be of any use for a company.
