[Archive] Black Gem of Gnar rule clarification

Da Crusha:

ok I have always understood that this item can only be used if there is: 1)a challenge declared and, 2) it is accepted; but recently I was reading it and thought, what if the part “after challenges have been declared and accepted” is just a timing clarification and not a condition for using the gem? I showed it to one of my friends and he believed immediately that the rule is just reffering to timing. that the gem can be activated AFTER challenges are established, just not before challenges are established, if there are even any challenges at all.  

so, my question to you guys is how do you understand the gem’s description? Do you think the description is just referring to timing or a condition of use?

Gar Shadowfame:

This small part reffers ONLY to the timing, and description clearly says that it can be used against any model in BtB.

Border Reiver:

Timing - but, if a challenge has been declared, and accepted, using it against a model with which you are in BTB, but not fighting with in a challenge removes 3 models from the fight - the Bearer of the Black Gem, the target of the Black Gem, and the character/champion who was fighting the target of the Black Gem (because the rules for fighting in Challenges prohibit the models in the challenge from fighting anybody else, p.77 of the Rulebook).

The sequence of events would be:

1. Start of Combat round;

2. Player 1 issues challenge, or doesn’t;

3. Player 2 accepts/declines any challenges of Player 1, or if no challenge as been issued by Player 1, Player 2 may then issue a challenge;

4. Player 1 accepts/declines any challenge of Player 2 (if necessary);

5. CD Player activates the Black Gem; and

6. The Challenge is fought.

Bolg:

Its about the timing, so you cant use it on impact hits.

there is no challenge necessary and canceling other characters fighting in a challenge (but not the bearer) is I thing dubious but maybe possible depending on how you read the rules. (it think it sounds beardy)

Baggronor:

I think the ‘removing 3 models from the fight’ thing is clearly against the spirit of the item, imo.

But yeah, its a timing thing, you don’t have to challenge or anything.

KramDratta:

Kudos to all. This might just be what my Hobgoblin Hero needed.

Tnx for the great tip.

Cheers

Border Reiver:

Note that I said that three models are removed from the fight if the character activating the Black Gem uses it on an enemy character fighting a challenge with someone other than the wearer of the Black Gem - how often is that going to happen? Granted you can use your champion to take the challenge, while your Hero bravely decides to stick it to the enemy, which then results in the ceremonial punch to the head for being a git, but hey, depending on who’s challenging it maight be worth it.

Gar Shadowfame:

this way owner of the gem loses 1 extra model, my oppinion is its aint worh it.

KramDratta:

@ Gar : If the bearer of the gem issues/accepts the challenge, then the gem can be activated on any model in base contact, which does not have to be the model accepting/issuing the challenge. Thus the Chaos Dwarf player loses 1 fighting model whilst the opponent loses 2.

As mentioned, it is very situational. But I am currently playing about with the Hobgoblin on wolf with the gem and this tip is awesome for that guy.

Baggronor:

I have a guy with the black gem, I challenge using him, someone powerful accepts, I use the Gem on someone else in btb; the guy with the Gem can’t fight, the target of the Gem can’t fight and I can’t be attacked by the powerful melee guy in the challenge, thus removing a powerful enemy, my guy and one other model from the fight. This is what I thought you meant? I think its actually legal, but its very, very poor form (but extremely entertaining if used on someone deserving :)).

Border Reiver:

As a way of sucking an opponent in it has merit - let’s say that you’re fighting the stereotypical Ogre Tyrant with his unit of Ironguts. He charges (no real surprise), you challenge with your champion - because he’ll figure that something is up if the sorcerer next to him does - and then you spring the Black Gem on him - takes the Tyrant out, along with the sorcerer and the champion. given the base size of the tyrant even if you’d challenged with the sorcerer, your champion may have been prevented from attacking by not being in BTB with a rank and file model. Your boys are turtled up, so the loss of the 3 S3 attacks probably won’t affect your CR too badly, while the loss of all the tyrant’s attacks should negatively affect the ogre players.

But such a trick is highly situational and is notsoemthing that I’d recommend any kind of reliance on.

Baggronor:

But such a trick is highly situational and is notsoemthing that I'd recommend any kind of reliance on.
No, but the ensuing hilarity is worth bearing in mind :) Mainly it involves the likely death of a Sorcerer if you don't break the enemy, so its not tooooo cheeky.
Shuffling the sorcerer around in the unit to improve his btb position just prior to the charge will also draw suspicion I guess.