[Archive] Breten`s Tactical progression

system · 20 November 2009 08:14

Breten:

Had no idea what to call this, but I thought Id start a thread showing my progression as a general.  While I have been playing Warhammer since 4th edition, it hasnt been at the top of my list of things to play. Back in 4th we had a small group of 3 regulars, with about 4 more guys who played occasionally. I had Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarves. Even then, we played more Epic than anything else. So I went to college (at 23), and didnt really play again until the switchover to 6th was on the horizon.  And then I played little, and was using Orcs & Gobbos.  And then in 2003, I discovered Confrontation, and didnt play another game of Warhammer Fantasy until January of this year, using a new Dark Elf army. I still have only played a handful of games, mostly from 250-750 points in the last few months as another Escalation league kicked off. My idea is to use this thread to turn me from a mediocre Warhammer general into a decent one. The crowd here can be pretty competitive, and Id like to have a fighting chance. One of my problems is that I am a fan of skirmish games, so the movement system and LoS, are not as intuitive to me.  I never know how to setup or what to do half the time. So I got my first game in last night at 1850 using this <a href="http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6599">list</a>.  My opponent Josh, was playing Empire.  From what I recall he ha a Steam Tank, Flagellants, Knights, Pistoliers, Hunters, Cannon, Crossbowmen, and another unit I cant recall. Ive only played against Empire once before, way back in 4th edition, oddly with my old Chaos Dwarfs. So long story short, I got demolished. His Steam Tank wiped out my unit of Chaos Dwarf Warriors, the Black Orcs, sat around and then got charged and wiped out by Flagellants, the Earthshaker was completely ineffective thanks to bad dice, and the Hobbos took out a Knight, then got wiped out, while the archers ran. One of the Blunderbusses was ineffctive. Stupid of me to trying to flank with a unit that moves 3 inches. And the Wolfriders didnt do much either.

I need to work on the whole baiting thing and movement in general. So my first problem to identify, is what use should I be using each unit for and what should I be concerning myself with in each army. The only thing I know for sure right now is team Tanks must die.

I took some photos with my cellphone.

Here`s the beginning of the doom. Steam Tank rolls into my unit of dwarves, taking o9ut 11 of them, they run, rally, then get smashed into the again the next turn, routing the General and unit champ. I did 3 wounds to the tank. Sadly, I now know that I should have been shooting at it with my Bolt Throwers.

system · 21 November 2009 01:04

Ancient History:

Okay, I can offer some general pointers that are true for any army:

1) Have a plan. Set up your units with an eye toward how you want to play the game - make sure ranged units (bows, war machines, sorcerers) have a clear line of sight, keep the Greenskin units somewhere where maybe they can mooch off of the general’s loyalty or a Banner of Slavery, and if you’re going to do baiting then remember: the weak unit (the bait) goes out in front, but close enough so that the strong unit is within charge distance when the weak unit is annihilated.

2) Realize that your plan is not going to survive contact with the enemy.

3) Identify the scariest things in your opponent’s army and target them with whatever you can. Dragons, steam tanks, a three-hundred-point-sink hero/general, whatever.

4) Match strength to strength, and strength to weakness. Do not send unarmored hobgoblins against knights, they will be slaughtered. Do send unarmored hobgoblins against the knights’ flank or rear while they’re busy engaging your Black Orcs or Chaos Dwarf Warriors.

As for specifics…well, try [[Chaos Dwarf Tactics]]

Bassman · 21 November 2009 09:59

Bassman:

Do not worry, loosing is not so bad if you learn lessons! I could tell I know a lot about loosing at Warhammer…

About steam tanks and unbeatable things: if you cannot beat them, deroute them. We have expendable slaves, they are perfect to deroute nasty stuff. I cannot count how many times I deroute uber frenzied units of doom, knights and big guys thanks to hobgoblins, orcs and even blunderbusses (yes, no command 14-15 dwarfs blunderbusses could be nice to bait and de-route nasty guys/units). If planned carefully they can be redirected into forest, difficult terrain, a far, far away corner of the table from where they take 2-3 turns to get back into a decent position.

The heartshaker could be a match winner but it is unreliable (too often you missfire the first turn or it scatter in a useless position). It’s 2d6 area effects only a small part of the enemy army so make your plans carefully and do not rely only on it. I’ve won matches loosing the shaker in turn one due to misfire!

Spread your warmachines on the battle field, your enemy will waste more time trying to cach them and you’ll have more lines of sights.

An hill is not always the best place to locate them… it really depends on the situation.

Baggronor · 21 November 2009 12:01

Baggronor:

the Black Orcs, sat around and then got charged and wiped out by Flagellants

I assume this was just indecision? (Blorcs don't suffer from animosity).

In general:
Bad deployment loses games, especially for M3 troops. You have 6 turns in which to act, plot where you can get to and what you can engage. Place your cheap hobgoblins before you commit the pricey Chaos Dwarfs, don't give away their location until he has placed a few key units. Try to save the artillery deployment until last, leave him as few options to react to it as possible.

Try to think 1-2 turns ahead, and get inside your opponent's plan. Why has he placed such and such unit there, and what is its purpose? Is it a hammer to smash your elites, (in which case you probably want to divert it) is it an expendable tarpit to tie up your elites and prevent them performing (in which case shoot it dead or feed it something cheap of your own), etc.

Regarding steam tanks:
They cannot overrun or pursue. Feeding it 10 man Hobgoblin units can tie it up for a long time.
Take plenty of Bolt Throwers and pin cushion it.
Do not engage it with expensive troops unless it has taken significant damage.
The key thing is that once it has taken 4-5 wounds, its effectiveness drops to the point where it poses little threat; when this happens, ignore it. You don't get any victory points for it unless it is completely destroyed and the effort that would take could usually be better spent elsewhere.

I would drop your Death Rocket for a second Earth Shaker and split up the large Hobbo unit into multiple small units of massive annoyance :)

system · 21 November 2009 02:20

Warhammerman:

I don’t play chaos dwarfs, but I do play dwarfs and they are kind of the same in playstyle. As others have said deployment can make or break a game. I find a good tactic is deploying away from your opponents heavy hitters (IE the ones you can’t realy beat in combat) And remember to bait units in with hobbos. Then flee and bring them in to your warriors or black orcs.

Try to play out your fights in your head before you commit to them. If you know you can’t win them throw a unit of naked hobbos at them. Follow tactics like this and you should be alright. And heavy cavalry are the bane of dwarfs so shoot them up and only take charges with your strong units.

system · 22 November 2009 07:16

Breten:

Thanks for the tips guys. I figure I’ll use this thread to blog about my battles and such. Maybe try to be a bit more detailed next time. I’m re-reading all the books and stuff to get a betterhandle on the rules. I can never remeber everything. Doesn’t help when I play so many game systems. I was running Infinity demos at the LGS today, and played some Alkemy and Uncharted seas. all in 1 day. No wonder I can’t recall all the rules for 1 game system. Anyhow…

In regards to the Black Orcs, yeah, it was indecision. I just held them back as I didn’t want to get them charged by his knights, but that made them completely ineffective. I just always recall my Black Orcs never paying off, and I think that causes me to try and hold them back for too long.Ah well, live and learn.

As for the Steam tank, imy unit ran away from it, regrouped, then got slammed again the following turn. The hobbo archers had run from the Pistoliers, so couldn’t be used to tie up the tank like I was planing. I definately need to add 2 more bolt throwers, so hopefully that’ll give me some more power. I had totally forgotten about the D3 wounds, and was thinking too much about the low BS to think it effective with my tragically low rolling. By the time I figured it out, I only got one shot off before it could slam into the warriors. And it did 1 wound sadly. So he was safe to go with 5 Steam points if I recall correctly.

I definately see the value of breaking the Hobgoblin unit up into two 10 hobbo units. The 20 man unit kind of hung on for longer than I would have liked. It’ll also give me a couple spares so I can convert 2 more bolt throwers. It never seemed fluffy to me taking a larger unit anyways. But he did use a unit of knights and Flagellants in the side to finish off the hoobbos. Had I been better prepared I could have had the BO in better position to nail those flagellants or Knights in the flank.

I’ve been tweaking my list this evening and have dropped the Hobbos into two units of ten, dropped a unit of archers, dropped the Deathrocket for 2 more Bolt Throwers. I also upgraded my hero to a Bull Centaur BSB. He’ll go with the Warriors. Do you guys toss him into the middle of the unit or just join him up to the side?

Baggronor · 22 November 2009 11:40

Baggronor:

Do you guys toss him into the middle of the unit or just join him up to the side?

It varies. He is free to shuffle around in your movement phase. Having him on the end can deter flankers, as he will strike back at them, but sometimes you want him in base contact with enemy characters who have engaged the unit to the front (who tend to be in the middle). Best to shuffle according to needs :)

system · 22 November 2009 12:25

Gar Shadowfame:

One of best dwarf players around uses 10 strong dwarf warriors units to advance and bend the charges not only this are his cores but they only cost 80 pts. Although without rank’n’file ranged units he can do more with warmashines.

system · 22 November 2009 07:46

Uzkul Werit:

Easier thing to do is just nail the Stank with shooting. A good turn should take it out easily.

Bassman · 25 November 2009 08:11

Bassman:

Bsb bull centaur is a great choice combining mobility with a decent offensive capability. Throw him some protection (armor of Gaz) and a great weapon and you’ll be fine.
As Baggronor said his deployment is situational. As a rule of thumb I like to place him in the corner of the unit free to move away if needed.
In dire situations it is really important for him to survive as you could need the crucial double rolling for breack test. You do not want to loose your block of warriors…
Thanks to dwarfs leadership, combat resolution and Bsb it’s very difficult to defeat your dwarfs, you have only to fear… fear causing units that outnumber you!

Baggronor · 25 November 2009 12:41

Baggronor:

Throw him some protection (armor of Gaz) and a great weapon and you'll be fine.

No great weapon if he's a BSB, only 7th ed books have the option, annoyingly. I would go for Sword of Might or some such.

I have a mate called Gaz, always makes me chuckle when someone refers to 'Armour of Gaz' :)

system · 25 November 2009 02:12

Breten:

Well, I should be getting my next game in tomorrow night hopefully. With any luck, I’ll fare better tomorrow night.

Bassman · 25 November 2009 05:49

Bassman:

Throw him some protection (armor of Gaz) and a great weapon and you'll be fine.
No great weapon if he's a BSB, only 7th ed books have the option, annoyingly. I would go for Sword of Might or some such.

I have a mate called Gaz, always makes me chuckle when someone refers to 'Armour of Gaz' :)

Baggronor

I just checked and in Italian Pdf there is a typo and clearly states he can have a great weapon... lol :D
They made the mistake of merging the two paragraphs with the result to clearly state:
"he may carry any magic banner but if he does so he may take no other magic items AND he may not be given any extra equipment except light or heavy armor"

So in Italy is the magic banner that prevents you to have a great weapon. In English the two paragraphs are clearly separated..... this is what you get with bad translators... :P I sent GW my Curriclum Vitae as a translator and they rejected it.... :|

Well sword of might is my other option ans it is useful to have a magic weapon against ethereals.... ;)

system · 27 November 2009 06:39

Breten:

All right, so I played my second game this evening, using the Raveniong Hordes list, with the tweaks mentioned above. I played a friend’s Bretonnians, with it being a close game until some really bad rolls on my part. I was possibly even winning at one point.

I did learn some valuable lessons this time around. When deploying, make sure you leave enough room for units to move around squabbling Hobgoblins. I had my main block of warriors, and some Blunderbusses right behind a unit of Hobbos that Squabbled on the first turn. Sadly they were right behind so couldn’t move at all because they were blocked.

If the Earthshaker misses a unit, does it still get the Earthshaker effect? We played it did, which helped slow down a unit of his Knights, long enough for me to do a lot of casualties on it.

Back on the other side of the field, another unit charged my Black Orcs, doing one casualty. Sadly I failed my leadership, they fleed, and were rundown by the knights, into a Bolt Thrower. They had some help from a flanking unit of Men at Arms, who followed up into the flank of my Warriors, only hitting the BSB. Sadly, even though I did a wound, I lost combat by one, failed with a roll of 9, and then 10 on the re-roll. The little buggers fled 11" into the Knights who charged the Bolt Thrower. 505 points wiped out by a unit of Men at Arms.

By this point, I’d lost my BSB, 25 Warriors, 15 Black Orcs, and a Bolt Thrower to half a unit of knights, and a unit of Men at Arms in 2 turns.I was also down a unit of Hobbo archers, 2 units of 10 naked Hobbos, 2 more Bolt Throwers, a unit of 14 Blunderbusses and sorcerer, and the Earthshaker. I’d taken out a unit of fast cav, another half unit of knights, and a pegasus knight. Had I not lost the 2 blocks of troops so handily, I may have been able to eak out a win. but sadly, failing leadership rolls can be disastrous. I definately have a better feel for the army though.

We have a 2200 point tyournament next weekend, which I’ve decided to enter. I’m also allowed to use the Indy GT list if I want, so I need to decide what to do. I have nothing that could stand in as Obsidian Guard. Maybe get a stand-in for a 2nd Earthshaker, and go with Bull Centaurs and 4 Bolt Throwers.

Bassman · 27 November 2009 09:21

Bassman:

Nice to see you had more fun this time

The heartshaker HAS effect in any case (it doesn’t work only if you roll misfire or you hit OUT of the board). It has an effective radius of 2d6 from the point it lands.

I rarely hit anything but I do not care because I try to locate the hit in a favourable poistion to effect the units I want to slow down/shut up missile fire.

It’s a pity you rolled so bad, it happens, do not worry.

You committed a couple of mistakes. It’s important you already understand a lesson, be careful with deployment, units can block each others…

Not only, try to not amass troops so tightly and plan the disposition as, in case you loose, the enemy do not crash into your flank! Your block of dwarfs is really important, it can win against a lot of enemies as long as it preserves its combat resolution.

I do not use indy gt army list so I cannot give you suggestions… sorry.

system · 27 November 2009 08:36

Uzkul Werit:

It takes a while to get the knack of any army. Brets are a hard match up if your foe makes his army right and just has massive knight units. You can’t kill 'em quickly enough!

Obsidian Guard are pure gold. Stick the Standard of Zharr Naggrund in there and you’re laughing.

Border.Reiver · 6 December 2009 01:55

Border Reiver:

Brets can be a hard match up due to the lady’s blessing - and generally you’ll find that blunderbusses are not as effective due to their short range and the increased armour save the knights get if you’ve got S5 to shoot with.

Brets need cunning use of speed bumps to redirect those lances and flanking units to take advantage of the long flanks of those same lances to maximize your chances to win. Of course this maight all go out the window, if like me, he takes lots of peasants

system · 6 December 2009 04:55

Breten:

Thanks for the tips guys. I got my third and final game in at 1850 on Thursday playing against Skaven. My first win with Chaos Dwarves!

I ran the same list with the Bull Centaur BSB, and was doing pretty good. It was a close game, and we’re pretty sure he actually killed more of his own troops than I did. His Doomwheel was pretty ineffective. It shot one Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower crewman, rolling double ones on the machine, not enough to take it out. It then proceeded to slam into my unit of Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses. It did one Impact hit, and managed to do only one woumd to the unit. I won the combat, it fled and slammed into a forest. That was pretty ,much how it went for him, and his sorcerers were hurting them selves more than they hit me.

The Blunderbus units were fantastic and with the sorcerers in the units they were dropping rats like flies. My Black Orcs were not useless, but weren’t the most effective. The wolfriders went down to a unit of Giant Rats, man those things throw a bucket of dice.

Today we had day one of the 2200 point tournament. Sadly, we’re currently in the grips of a blizzard here in Calgary. The snow is hard, and deep. cars are stuck in snow drifts and it’s a mess. I picked up a couple of friends amd headed to the store at 9am. We got to the 2nd guy’s place and he called to tell us he’d meet us at the corner. We got stuck anyways. 15 minutes later were were free and on our way.

We pulled up to the strip mall the store was in, and as I turned the corner, I slid into a huge snowdrift, getting stuck. We nabbed a couple of the guys from the store, and managed to puch the car back. The strip mall was being plowed so we went in a different entrance. We got in and got started.

My first game of the day was against Mark and his Chaos Warriors. Never played him before, but enjoyed the game even after getting beat down. I suffered from inefficient use of my Black Orcs again, and the same goes for the Lord on Taurus, and a few other recognizable issues. I was also over-agressive, and didn’t really have the hang of the army yet, though I learnt a lot in that game. I also have never faced the current version of Chaos Mortals, so there were some things I was surprised by. Jan 2009 was my first large game of Warhammer in at least 6 years, probably more. Since that game in Jan with Dark Elves, I’d only played the current games with the Chaos Dwarves at that size.

I got a bye in the 2nd round, so fixed some models and read through my new copy of the old White Dwarf Presents Chaos Dwarves army book, as well as watching and learning. In the third round I played Chris’ Goblin army, led by Skarsnik and Gobbla. Chris’ army is gorgeaus, with all sorts of conversions. There was Squig Hoppers, and a units of Squigs, and something like 9 units of 20 Goblins. I’ll take pics tomorrow during the painting judging.

This was a good fight. I was onto how to use my army, and catching a better grasp of the rules by now. Sadly, with both of our generals lost, I fell into some bad positions, due to the shear number of goblins and some crafty movement by my opponent. Chris is one of the hardcore tournament players locally, and it’s the first time I played him. I was worried at first, but I really enjoyed the game, and learned a tonne about movement and positioning in that game. I just need to work on adopting it. I ended up with both Blunderbuss units (14, w/Lvl 2 sorcerers & Scrolls), and my core block of Warriors turned 90 degrees. Obviously the got nailed in the flanks and lost my leadership rolls getting overrun or slamming into sguig hoppers than bounced up a flank and into the rear. Sadly all my shooting with Bolt Throwers was ineffective, and his magic was way more effective than mine. As I think back on the game I can definately see where things were definately more planned than just being random. I’m catching on.

So we left the store at about 6:15, and decided to take McKnight which is one of the major roads leading to and from the airport. There was a pinch in the road, with snow probably 4-5 feet high blocking two lanes. There was even a car buried to the roof stuck in one of the lanes. Sadly, a bunch of people were stuck as the lane was just wide enough for a car to barely open it’s doors. A bunch of people dug out the lead car, as the snow was so deep and solid that it was blocking lower bumpers on cars like my Civic. Yep we got stuck too. So Mike and Ryan push and I gunned it. We got out of that trap, and managed to get home without incident.

Tomorrow we play 2 more games and that’ll be it. Hopefully we don’t get stuck too much. It’s supposed to get worse, colder for sure. But we are dedictaed.

Bassman · 8 December 2009 09:20

Bassman:

Holy Hashut! I love snow but reading your writings I like to live in Italy :o

I had a lot of fun reading your battle report against Skaven. Dunno why but I like random armies like Orc’n goblins and Skaven.

It’s so funny when during a battle the two armies spend most of the time hurting themselves than killing enemies, like when my Death rocket blows up and my opponent’s sorcerer kill himself… lol

Good for you he killed himself more than you did! :hat off

system · 8 December 2009 06:13

Breten:

I used to play Orcs for that very reason.

So Sunday.  Sunday was still pretty bad weather-wise, but knowing where not to drive, we didn’t have any issues except for the -25 degrees Celcius weather.  That’s about -15 Farenheit for the Americans on the board.

So for my first game I would be playing against Dark Elves.  Ryan’s Dark Elf list wasn’t the most competitive, as he had 10 Crossbowmen, 20 Corsairs, 20 Warriors, 20 Witch Elves, and some Cold Ones and a repeter Bolt Thrower.  He then loaded up his characters having a LVl. 2 Sorceress, an Assasin, Lord, Malus Darkblade and Lokhir Fellheart.  I was pretty confident that I could win this game.

Sadly Ryan got first turn, which was pretty uneventful.  Sadly on my turn I totally forgot to use the Earthshaker first, using one of the 4 Bolt Throwers.  I realized my mistake as I tossed the dice.  Sadly I missed with the Bolt Thrower, which would pretty much be the norm for the game.  And it was too late to pull off the Earthshaker on the Cold Ones.

That mistake would go on to cost me the game.  His Cold One Knights managed to come running down the flank, wiping out a unit of Hobbos, then slamming into a Blunderbus unit, which then got charged by Witch Elves as well.

My Bull Centaurs took out Lokhir and his Corsairs, ending up in his deployment zone by the time they got run down.  And his Warriors ended up the same.  Sadly his Bolt Thrower made mincemeat out of my Great Taurus leaving the General to run around on foot.  Not sure if I will ever use the Taurus competitively again.  He’s just too big of a target, and I’ve never really used monsters before, so in a coupld games he didn’t really do anything.

At the end of the game, he ad 360 more VP’s than I did, taking a minor victory.  I was a little disappointed with myself, as I could have won, assuming I didn’t flub the roll on the Earthshaker.  Even then I had some plans, but I ended up a little confused after that mistake.

My 4th and final game during the 5th round was against the hated Dwarves.  This was another tough and brutal game.  When the opposing characters all have insane str and armour saves, there’s not much to do about it.  His Thunderers holed up in a building picking stuff off, while I would lose CR, and run.  Ld 10 doesn’t mean Squat when your at -6 on average.  In this game my Bolt Throwers were pretty ineffective.  By the end of the game, 4 BT’s had only taken out 5-6 Slayers.  That’s it.  I missed every other roll.  My dice weren’t on my side on Sunday.  But at least my Bull Centaurs were being useful in this game and the previous.

At the end of it, I was winless except for my bye.  Defineately a lot of lessons learned and I definately have a better grasp on my army, and the game system itself.

Here’s the list I brought to the Tournament.

2200 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Roster

Chaos Dwarf Lord (425 pts)

1 Great Taurus

1 Black Hammer of Hashut

1 Armor of Gazrakh

Bull Centaur Hero (149 pts)

Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Battle Standard Bearer

1 Sword of Might

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer (125 pts)

Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon

1 Dispel Scroll

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer (125 pts)

Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon

1 Dispel Scroll

Chaos Dwarf Warriors (25, 305 pts)

(Musician; Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield)

Chaos Dwarf Annihilators (14#, 168 pts)

Chaos Dwarf Annihilators (14#, 168 pts)

Hobgoblins (10, 20 pts)

Hobgoblins (10, 20 pts)

Black Orcs (18, 290 pts)

full command

Bolt Thrower 1 (30 pts)

Bolt Thrower 2 (30 pts)

Bolt Thrower 3 (30 pts)

Bolt Thrower 4 (30 pts)

Bull Centaurs (5, 175 pts)

full command, GW, War Banner

Earthshaker (110 pts)