[Archive] Bull Centaur Rules

cornixt:

Summary

Using [[RAW]], Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons.  They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted.  They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons.  They are Unit Strength 2 cavalry.

Explanation

(all page numbers refer to the large 7th edition rulebook, not yet checked to see if they are the same as the small book)

Definitions of Cavalry:

Cavalry, page 7: Cavalry includes four legged creatures with 1 wound, on a 25x50mm base.

List of Weapons, page 55: Mounted models include cavalry.

Unit Strength, page 71: Models mounted on 25x50mm bases are cavalry.

Weapon use:

Hand Weapons, page 56: Bonuses for using two hand weapons, or handweapon and shield, do not apply to cavalry or mounted models.

Great Weapons (Mounted), page 56: +1 Strength bonus.

Armour Save:

Taking Armour Saves, page 30: Cavalry armour save does not apply to single creatures, only those with a separate rider and mount.

Other Rules for Consideration

[[US-GT rules]]: Bull Centaurs count as infantry on 25x50mm bases, but with US2 (as per their RH entry).

Centigor rules: Use hand weapons, including two hand weapons, as infantry.  Use spears as cavalry.  Do not get cavalry armour save.

Direwolf FAQ rules: Bull Centaurs are cavalry in all respects except they use equipment as if they were infantry and gain no armour save bonus for being mounted.  This is a judgement based on Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 112 (6th edition ruling) and Direwolf FAQ Council Interpretation

ashur:

If you ask me, Bull centaurs should just be as tough as the chaos knights. A real heavy cavalry

Malificant:

thank you cornixt. this is very helpful. now we have a resource which lists all the inturpretations of the rule, and which system they are in. should make it easier to determine now. hat’s off:hat off

AGPO:

It’d be goodif someone posed this question to a games developer direct… anyone up for sending the e-mail who has contact details?

cornixt:

Direwolf did that I think, but got no response. They do get quite a few responses usually.

Hirohito:

Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons. They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted. They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons
Sorry, i don't agree.
For me, BC use same rules of centigors: they use theire weapons as infantry.

Canix:

Use BC as DOW heavy cavalry for the best of both worlds of course your BC hero or lord will be different but does that really matter!:hat

Hashut’s Blessing:

Hirohito, please have a quick re-read of the first post. It’s stating all of the rules as written :wink:

I’d like to point out that Direwolf rules are not official, but are usually the best ones for FAQs. Also, apart from the tournament for which they were written, US-GT rules are not official either. Just bear this in mind for your opponents that like to have official rules and nothing else.

Lavindil:



cornixt
Summary
Using [[RAW]], Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons.  They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted.  They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons.  They are Unit Strength 2.

Lavindil:

Summary
Using [[RAW]], Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons.  They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted.  They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons.  They are Unit Strength 2.


cornixt
This is all true assuming they are cavalry, which they would be. however they aren't noted as cavalry in there unit description the just happen to have a really big move

cornixt:

They don’t need to be noted as cavalry in their description (very few units are anyway). They simply fit the definition of cavalry given in the rulebook.

Swissdictator:

I often consult the Direwolf FAQ, which has them run a lot like Centaurs.

If I’m not sure how an event will treat them, I contact ahead of time… find out how they’ll rule on it so I know what to expect it. Every time I’ve asked, they happily (as far as I know they’ve always ruled with Direwolf) reply so I can know “how my army will work” :wink:

Either way, If they rule one way I will run them in X style, if the other Y style. I won’t complain, I’ll just adapt as it leads to two very different units, in my eyes.

dedwrekka:

Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons.  They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted.  They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons
Sorry, i don't agree.
For me, BC use same rules of centigors: they use theire weapons as infantry.


Hirohito
I made the same point a long time ago. Someone else pointed out that the centigor rules don't make mention of great weapons (because they don't use them), and that they don't use all weapons as infantry as they use different weapons different ways (ie. spears as cav and hand weapons as infantry).
Summary
Using [[RAW]], Bull Centaurs get +1S when using great weapons.  They do not get +1 to their armour save for being mounted.  They do not get an extra attack when using additional handweapons.  They are Unit Strength 2.


cornixt
This is all true assuming they are cavalry, which they would be. however they aren't noted as cavalry in there unit description the just happen to have a really big move


Lavindil
They don't need to be noted as cavalry in their description (very few units are anyway). They simply fit the definition of cavalry given in the rulebook.

cornixt
Both of these are true, but because of the change in description of what is and isn't cavalry between 6th and 7th edition, the Bull centaurs are (RAW) cavalry. However, if you don't want to use that you don't have to.

We aren't an official army anyways*, so I don't see the problem with using Direwolf's FAQ.

*in so much as we don't have an "official" army list at least.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Lavindill, please read the entirety of the first post again. Read as written:the rulebook deems them as cavalry and nothing anywhere else contradicts it. However, you may ask your opponent for houseruling to treat them akin to Centigors, r eplacing the word “spears” for the words “great weapons”.

cornixt:

This thread was set up to show exactly what the rules are. Everyone is welcome to use the Direwolf ruling, US-GT FAQ, or making up their own, since the RAW is very restrictive and doesn’t make sense for BCs.

There can be no debate on what the RAW rules are, only about if they should apply or not.

Tarrakk Blackhand:

ThanX for posting this. Although I haven’t built them yet, I’ll keep this post in mind when I play them.

kerbak:

I have recheck this post several times and its very disturbing trying to figurate how to use them… Normally we will have to use rules RAW, but in this case we wont be able to add additional hand weapon.

By the other hand they are the only no mounted cavalry unit that can use hand weapons, so there the reduction fro strength have no sense on them, but must be use RAW…

Them, I dislike to be honest when its not good to me, and till I read this, I always use them as an infantry that moves a lot, but now, everything changes… isn´t any new FAQ??

Also a doubt, if they are cavalries we must apply on them spells or similar that affect to cavalries??.. I ask because there is an spell on Beast lore, some artifacts on Orkz magic items, so effects of Skaven Bell, etc , and till now I always thought that this doesn�?Tt affect them

Thommy H:

The RAW are the RAW. If you play RAW then I guess you’re stuck with crap Bull Centaurs but, in my experience, very few people play strict RAW in this situation. So it’s up to you and the people you play against. There are some very good reasons for using the RAI, but if you’re playing in an environment that sticks to RAW, what can you do? The rules are clear.

kerbak:

Damm you are right!! :frowning:

cornixt:

Rules is rules. I explained them and the reasoning. I don’t agree with them and I’m not suggesting that anyone should use the RAW over anything else. US-GT rules for them make the most sense to me.