[Archive] Bullcentaurs VS K'Daai Fireborn

Loidrial:

I didnt have the chance to play any match yet because I’m finishing to assemble my army.

The question in easy, what are the pros and cons about them?

I know that a lot will go on “depend of how you play” and usually it was bad because I always missed in the past some info or technicality about my old skaven for example.

What I have so far of CD is this.

1 lord on taurus (actually 2)

1 lord on lammasu

3 daemonsmiths

1 khan (on the way)

40 warriors more or less

10 blunderbuss (on the way)

6 (but they will be more soonish) hobs archers

2 old bullcentaurs (on the way)

2 dreadquake (the old earthquake mortar, is it good to play it like this?)

2 magma cannon (on the way)

2 Rockets

1 hellcannon (on the way)

I even wonder if I can already pull out some playable list from it.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Bull Centaurs are dirt cheap - one of our cheapest units actually! And one of our fastest. They have god-awful damage output but are very damage-resistant for their points cost. They cannot win combat on their own unless it is against another chaff unit or a war machine. Enemies have to dedicate something more than chaff to deal with them. Without a character to help them kill things, they suck.

K’daii Fireborn have fair to slightly above-average damage output but they aren’t that speedy. And they don’t have a musician so they can’t do swift reforms which is a huge minus for me. They are great for soaking up cannon balls and the like and chew through a lot of infantry with surprising speed. Of course they burn out so you need to field extra just as ablative wounds for those failed toughness tests and their demons so they take extra damage from magic. They aren’t great but they aren’t terrible either.

Bull Centaurs have better models than the K’daii but the K’daii are a better unit overall.

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

K’daai burn themselves out, this is very worrying to me. I never field them because of this rule. At t4 they will be loosing wounds and rarely last a full 6 turns.

BC are very sturdy, with a BC character they are very killy. You still need 5 rank and file (not including a champ) to get a look out sir roll so bigger is better, unfortunantly when you go too big they take up too many points. I find they work best in 3k and under games in a unit of 4 in a 2x2 formation. If you take the Hero make them 3x3 so 5 BC and the hero. This unit is expensive but they don’t kill themselves and with GW become very deadly because anything they hit will generally die. Match ups are very important though and pairing them up with a destroyer or an iron daemon is the way to go. Never send them off by themselves…

Malorndk:

Bull Centaurs are a brick! They do some decent damage against heavily armored foes, but they can dish out some themselves. With a Crown of command Tauruk in the second rank, they are hard to deal with by many opponents. + they are dirt cheap!

Fireborns have 4 good features: Unbreakable. S5. Flaming body (free hits on models in base contact+more resilient in CC). and a ward save.

Then they have a plethora of baaaad features: No armor. No weapon upgrades. T4. They burn out. Only 2 Attacks. Unstable. + they are semi expensive.

It’s understandable to compare them to each other, but it’s really hard to make the math on all the K’daiis special rules. I would run with bulls any day due to cooler models and faster movement.

Loidrial:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.

They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?

full command weapon+shield?

Yodrin:

I have better success with fireborn from 6 to 8 in a unit. They are hard to kill and awesome with 4 in a rank with the auto str4 hit against t3 or even t4.

gashnag:

I’ve had great results from fireborn I had a 8 man group charge a hammerer horde w/ dwarf runelord and bsb in it after three rounds of combat the hammerers were all dead the rune lord had two wounds left and the bsb (he had a 2+ward vs flaming) was untouched, however the fireborn between burning bright and wounds from combat had only suffered 8 wounds. Never underestimate the re-roll to wound for non-magical attacks.

Malorndk:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.
They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?
full command weapon+shield?

Loidrial
I would bring either 3 or 5 bulls + a Tauruk. Unless I know I'll primarily face lightly armored infantry, I will always bring Great Weapons and no shields. If I know I'll face fx a Vampire count army with a ton of zombies, skellies and invocation, I will consider additional handweapon. I will never ever go spear or sword/board.

A Tauruk can do many a great thing and can be equipped well for many tasks. I prefer to run Crown of Command on him, which synergizes well with a backrow position, which I'll explain in a minute.

Your formation should either be 2*2 or 3*2 depending on whether you use the small unit or the standard unit. The small unit should have banner and musician in the front row, since the Bahal doesn't loose his extra attack be being in the back row. The Tauruk will loose his fourth attack, but keeping him safe with the Crown of Command turns a resilient unit into a 100*150 mm brick wall in the middle of the battle field. With the large unit I would put the full command in the front row, and the Tauruk in the back due to aforementioned reasons.

Extra tip: Once your local gaming group has grown used to you stubborn bull unit, you do a simple mind game, and kit your Tauruk to a lone assassin role (Dawnstone, Dragon Helm, Sword of Striking, Potion of Strenght or similar stuff). When you opponents expects the brick wall strategy, you charge your lone assassin Tauruk out of the unit, and hunts vulnerable stuff. This wont always work, but the psychological pressure can be in your favor.

Loidrial:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.
They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?
full command weapon+shield?

Loidrial
I would bring either 3 or 5 bulls + a Tauruk. Unless I know I'll primarily face lightly armored infantry, I will always bring Great Weapons and no shields. If I know I'll face fx a Vampire count army with a ton of zombies, skellies and invocation, I will consider additional handweapon. I will never ever go spear or sword/board.

A Tauruk can do many a great thing and can be equipped well for many tasks. I prefer to run Crown of Command on him, which synergizes well with a backrow position, which I'll explain in a minute.

Your formation should either be 2*2 or 3*2 depending on whether you use the small unit or the standard unit. The small unit should have banner and musician in the front row, since the Bahal doesn't loose his extra attack be being in the back row. The Tauruk will loose his fourth attack, but keeping him safe with the Crown of Command turns a resilient unit into a 100*150 mm brick wall in the middle of the battle field. With the large unit I would put the full command in the front row, and the Tauruk in the back due to aforementioned reasons.

Extra tip: Once your local gaming group has grown used to you stubborn bull unit, you do a simple mind game, and kit your Tauruk to a lone assassin role (Dawnstone, Dragon Helm, Sword of Striking, Potion of Strenght or similar stuff). When you opponents expects the brick wall strategy, you charge your lone assassin Tauruk out of the unit, and hunts vulnerable stuff. This wont always work, but the psychological pressure can be in your favor.


Malorndk
Stubborn was that no matter what, they always test with their own leadership?
So it will be good thing to send the bulls around most of the times with 2h weapon instead of 1h and shield? obvious the thing about hordes ofc.
For the 1st matches I will play vs this friend of mine who has lizards and mortal chaos.

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.
They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?
full command weapon+shield?

Loidrial
Your command models need to fill the front rank so if you have a champ, banner and muso they will take up the front rank if you are 3 across. When in combat the Hero can make a 'make way' move so he can replace any model for himself (if you want to)

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

[/quote]

Stubborn was that no matter what, they always test with their own leadership?

Loidrial:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.
They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?
full command weapon+shield?

Loidrial
Your command models need to fill the front rank so if you have a champ, banner and muso they will take up the front rank if you are 3 across. When in combat the Hero can make a 'make way' move so he can replace any model for himself (if you want to)


Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed
so if i have a musician and bannerman in the front row i can just swap one of them for free once i charged with the eventual hero?

i didnt get what do you mean instead with STEADFAST. I'm italian and here all the rules are in italian. after googled it i couldnt find any answer to it :(

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

So overall it seems bull is the answer. But I dont get 1 thing then.
They are incredibly huge on that base, so do i have to put them in 2x2 with the taruk guy in it in the front with the captain?
full command weapon+shield?

Loidrial
Your command models need to fill the front rank so if you have a champ, banner and muso they will take up the front rank if you are 3 across. When in combat the Hero can make a 'make way' move so he can replace any model for himself (if you want to)


Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed
so if i have a musician and bannerman in the front row i can just swap one of them for free once i charged with the eventual hero?

i didnt get what do you mean instead with STEADFAST. I'm italian and here all the rules are in italian. after googled it i couldnt find any answer to it :(


Loidrial
Yep you can swap them in the close combat phase as long as the hero gets into combat. You can't do a make way move to get out of combat.

Stubborn special rule just gives the character and his unit Steadfast. The Steadfast rule can be found in the close combat section of the BRB under looser takes a break test section. If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes its Break test on its unmodified Leadership.

Loidrial:

Yep you can swap them in the close combat phase as long as the hero gets into combat. You can't do a make way move to get out of combat.

Stubborn special rule just gives the character and his unit Steadfast. The Steadfast rule can be found in the close combat section of the BRB under looser takes a break test section. If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes its Break test on its unmodified Leadership.

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed
So if i got it, stubborn gives to the unit the ability to test with their LD if they lose but still has more ranks than the opponent.
Isnt that useless with the fact that i have a 2*2 unit? 3*2 if lucky.
wasnt the rank made atleast from 5 models? (at least when i used to play)

Dînadan:

wasnt the rank made atleast from 5 models? (at least when i used to play)

Loidrial
5 models for regular Infantry and Cav, but Monstrous Infantry, Cav and Beasts only need 3 for a rank bonus (and 6 for a horde) now.

Loidrial:

wasnt the rank made atleast from 5 models? (at least when i used to play)

Loidrial
5 models for regular Infantry and Cav, but Monstrous Infantry, Cav and Beasts only need 3 for a rank bonus (and 6 for a horde) now.


Dînadan
always played skaven back in the days, so for me was 20+ models of 5 rows.

btw then what is the point of use the taruk with the mask for be stubborn if using 4 models in 2*2 they wont have any rank bonus? i dont follow you ppl :(

Malorndk:

Stubborn means you breaktests wll always be on your Generals or Tauruks Ld (9-10).

Everything else is irrelevent for you in this discussion.

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

Stubborn means you breaktests wll always be on your Generals or Tauruks Ld (9-10).

Everything else is irrelevent for you in this discussion.

Malorndk
Yeah sorry to confuse the situation. You are stubborn (and thus steadfast) regardless of who has the most ranks.

Rettile:

----italian translator here----

Loidrial, in realtà è semplice: se sei DETERMINATO (stubborn) ti comporti sempre come se fossi INCROLLABILE (steadfast), quindi se una unità DETERMINATA (o anche un eroe singolo che lo sia) con disciplina X perde un combattimento contro un reggimento con un numero di ranghi e modelli più elevato testerà sempre e comunque con la propria disciplina non modificata o quella del generale (sempre non modificata) e se entro la presenza ispiratrice e come al solito potrà usufruire del reroll dello stendardo da battaglia. Chiaro? :wink:

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End of italian part, i hope i didn’t annoy anyone :slight_smile:

Loidrial:

----italian translator here----

Loidrial, in realtà è semplice: se sei DETERMINATO (stubborn) ti comporti sempre come se fossi INCROLLABILE (steadfast), quindi se una unità DETERMINATA (o anche un eroe singolo che lo sia) con disciplina X perde un combattimento contro un reggimento con un numero di ranghi e modelli più elevato testerà sempre e comunque con la propria disciplina non modificata o quella del generale (sempre non modificata) e se entro la presenza ispiratrice e come al solito potrà usufruire del reroll dello stendardo da battaglia. Chiaro? ;)

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End of italian part, i hope i didn't annoy anyone :)

Rettile
got it, so if he loses will just test normally with his LD. what i thought in the start but wanted to be sure. thx.