[Archive] Chaos Dwarf Warriors - Useless or useful?

Ubertechie:

In my experience - and given that I play reasonably aggressively it seems that chaos dwarf warriors are a bit of a do-do in our list (similar to Chaos Warriors in the old HOC book) - yes they are tough as nails but they are dog slow and unless they are charged they rarely make combat (4 turns to cross the 24" divide isn’t much fun) - and thus apart from VP denial and as a bunker for our LD 10 hero level general and sorcerers they aren’t that points effective and for the same sort of points as a warrior unit we can get a 15 man Blunderbuss unit with a standard plus 20 naked hobgoblins. These is really sad as they are fantastic minis.

What are other peoples experience of them ?

Cheers

Ubertechie

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

well there is a tactic for all drawf player’s and it go’s like this place 2 hill in the corner of the board and place your your cannons on the highest part then your guns in the frist hill then place all your troops on the floor circleing the hill then wait fo your opponent to come frist they will get shot by cannons then as they get closer they will get shot by the blunderbusses then they will get kill by your warriors but you must let the opponent deploy frist and you must have paychent (can’t spell) :hat off

Willmark:

They are good for tying up opponents of holding board sections as well as anchoring the battleline. But chrargibg into combat? Doesnt happen.

Ubertechie:

well there is a tactic for all drawf player's and it go's like this place 2 hill in the corner of the board and place your your cannons on the highest part then your guns in the frist hill  then place all your troops on the floor circleing the hill then wait fo your opponent to come frist they will get shot by cannons then as they get closer they will get shot by  the blunderbusses then they will get kill by your warriors but you must let the opponent deploy frist and you must have paychent (can't spell) :hat off

Godbob and his jolly rogers
Godbob - Please don't take this personally - but the dwarf 'sit back and shoot tactic' is no tactic at all in my opinion. WillMark yes they are good at holding the line but Blunderbusses and hobgobs for core and orcs with shields and bolt throwers as special seem a much much better choice

Willmark:

Then its not very much a chaos dwarf army is it? :wink:

Hashut’s Blessing:

Well, they may appear to be useless, but they are our only decent combat unit. Also, technically, these warrior are given the blunderbusses so they have that use. However, they are 100% necessary as they count as core. If you upgrade them to BBs, that’s fine. As a CC unit though, they are meant as an anchor, not for charging. The low movement shows us that. Perhaps to counter charge or if the opponent fails theirs, but otherwise, you shouldn’t be using these units to charge. They should be static combat, blocks of infantry. not sure how you figure Chaos Warriors were useless. That was the mainstay of my army and I did very well with them. The Marauders were used as hobgoblins in a CD army, but I seem to have very good skill at not losing many models to ranged attacks.

Yes, you can use Orcs in their stead, but Orcs CAN be used for charging. The downside is that Orcs cost a Special slot AND suffer animosity, have lower leadership and mostly the same stats. I’d prefer to use Chaos dwarf Warriors for the most part, personally. Also, as Willmark has said: You need CDs for a CD army…

Theory_Man:

Chaos Dwarf Warriors are not useless. Better then most core troops in other armies and some elite troops too. Good at receiving charges because of their T4 good armor save and leadership.

Always take them in big blocks.

Like most infantry units, they become more important in bigger battles (any thing 2K and above).

Ubertechie:

Ouch …

Thanks for all the responses - firstly - let me say that i love the CD warrior models and want to use them.

However given an aggressive style of play whereby (in the majority of games) you aim to get off at least 50% of all infantry unit charges, M3 becomes an issue. Now if you are playing someone who is combat orientated and has M5 or higher (skaven, elves, ogres) or against a lot of cavalry then I can see that they would be great at taking a charge. Also using bait and flee with naked hobgoblins can work to effectivley close the gap quicker however as I see it for the 3 core requirements 3 units of 15 Blunderbusses with 3 units of 20 naked hobgoblins are a lot more likely to return their points than 3 units of CD warriors. I have been running 1 unit of warriors and 2 of blunderbusses and the blunderbusses on average score more points than they cost whereas the CD warriors don’t.

Orcs on the other hand with choppa and shield and held in the center of the line either side of a ld-10 general seem to be a better investment of points.

The only other way I could see CD warriors being good is in a mostly infantry list where they formed a 3 unit wide steam roller.

I am also maybe an extreme player in that I am fascinated by getting the most return from any unit against all armies (My fun comes from heavily optimised army lists and well fought games)

cheers for al your views

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

Godbob - Please don't take this personally - but the dwarf 'sit back and shoot tactic' is no tactic at all in my opinion. WillMark yes they are good at holding the line but Blunderbusses and hobgobs for core and orcs with shields and bolt throwers as special seem a much much better choice

Ubertechie
it's ok (it's not mine anyway i stole it from WD :D) but it is ture that to many O&G dosen't make it very drawfy does it

metro_gnome:

well I for one am surprised by your success with BB units…

they usually get about one shot off… then they fold like flimsy cardboard in CC…

If i didn’t own the models I wouldn’t field them…

the reason to take warriors is simple: because you have to…

they are a reasonably priced anvil unit… that can tarpit most things…

and with a character in the front rank they can whittle away at enemy as well…

leave the GWs at home tho… this unit doesn’t kill things… its grinds static CR…

really only shield orcs compete for the role… and for a special you can make boyz flashier (2HW, Big 'Uns)…

I run what i guess you are calling the “steam roller” but what I call WHFB…

3 big blocks at 2K is pretty much standard for a horde army… one of mine is an orc block… 2 are CDs…

naked hobgrotz for counter charges… and BBs cause i own the models…

both kinds of cavalry for problem solving…

M3 is a problem… so is animosity…

but remember your Earthshaker should be able to correct for movement issues…

it is the great leveler…

Ubertechie:

Metro

With my blunderbusses i average 3 shots a game per unit - at that sort of level they are well worth their points and taken in 3 ranks with a standard they often hold the charge of what they have been shooting at. Also with decent positioning of hobgoblins in front you can delay or re-align an enemy charge relatively easily and often get off another volley

I am not a Earth Shaker fan - i prefer bull centaurs as i prefer to dominate in my own movement phase rather than restricting the opponents with the earth shaker - each to their own though :slight_smile:

As an aside why do you use such an aggressive tone in your posts ? they all read very tersely - is this intended or just accidental ?

Cheers

Bryan

Deebo:

Sorry I am another fan of the warriors, and I do like the castle tactic that godbob mentioned, I read it in the chronicles of warhammer which is outakes of WD there are a few cool tactic things in there to play around with.

I do have one small tip (it may or may not help, just an idea) for you if you like the aggressive approach in getting lots of charges off and I agree that it can be very effective if you can manage it and it does make it hard with M3 but what I do is try to calculate the distances whilst deploying, e.g. we got a 24" gap so if your facing something with M4 it will make that in 2 marches and a charge if both of you are on the line so I try to set them back a bit or where ever best suits so that you can move up slowly and try to lure them into a very close but failed charge so when they are finished moving they can be in charge range of our slow little mates with the big axes.

Kera foehunter:

Warriors kick but!!! deep rants and nothing will get thew.

metro_gnome:

I am fascinated by getting the most return from any unit against all armies

Ubertechie
I am not a Earth Shaker fan - i prefer bull centaurs

Ubertechie
does not compute...

I am not sure why you are satisfied with a 5+ armor save...
perhaps you face nothing but S3 opponents with no shooting or something...
the rest of us are not so lucky...

3 shots a game?
No doubt you'll tell me its right into massed T3 infantry...
I have so little respect for your opponents...

the Cav list can play well... but you are playing a niche...
the CD army is a Horde army... to which CD warriors have a role... as anvil...
if you are trying to make the army do something it doesn't do naturally...
then I am not surprised your are disappointed by dwarf infantry performance...
I'd spend less on your infantry and use the points for wolfboyz...

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

Sorry I am another fan of the warriors, and I do like the castle tactic that godbob mentioned, I read it in the chronicles of warhammer which is outakes of WD there are a few cool tactic things in there to play around with.

Deebo
thanks deebo :cheers anyway CD can be a shield line and move together turn by turn slowly geting closer to the opponent line

wallacer:

I’ve never really had much luck with blunderbusses. My army usually does best with three blocks of CD warriors with a general and BSB in amongst them, an earthshaker to slow down the enemy, and BCs, Wolf riders and a Lord on Taurus to provide the manoeuvrability.

I wouldn’t say CD warriors are useless, they’re just not very tactically flexible. If you use them for what they’re designed for (a rock hard block of anvil units that the rest of your army can manoeuvre around) then they’re great.

Willmark:

Agreed they “anchor” the battleline. From their you build you army from. That why I recently added a unit of 25 to my other unit of 30.

tetnis:

I just started the army and am currently converting BFSP dwarfs (so I haven’t used the little buggers yet) but I’ve played fantasy for years. IMHO if you have several big blocks of CD warriors your opponent doesn’t really have much choice but to engage them. 20 Warriors with command is over 200 pts, and by running 2 or 3 units you force your opponent to deal with them somehow. Can your opponent really afford to ignore 1/3 of your army (not including the characters inevitably hiding in the units), especially if you deploy with some sense and support your war machines with these units? Again this is all theoretical, and I suppose things are often very different in practice.

Why are you using Kyte’s avatar? Unless he has given you permission to sdo so, please change it.-Willmark.

minty:

usefull beyond usefulness, as there one of the best anchor units in the game, and for the following reasons

They set up a counter charge, just keep a couple of small attackish units hanging back about 4" to there flank, so there probably out of charge range. When the warriors hold (and with a hero general nearby, they will do, except against those uber 500 point units) thie other unit flank charges, thus securing you a victory.

They fill up a core slot, which is something you NEED. there also the principle unit of the horde army that is CDs. If you’re using an all-cav army, then of course you’re not going to like warriors speed, but in an infantry army (or even a balanced one) the warriors are awesome

with an earhtshaker cannon (which is so filtly powerful for it’s points cost, as oppose to BCs, who have the power of a 17 point model) they usualy hold the speed advantage, guess behind the unit you want to slow, and watch those elves move 5" while you move "…then charge

Hrothgar Goldgreed:

Same statsistics as normal Dwarf warriors, and therefore a very useful/good core choice.