[Archive] Chaos Dwarfs and Chaos

Arakagaan Calasson:

Chaos Dwarfs are clearly touched by chaos, that much is certain. They are also clearly not good aligned in any way.

However, am I the only guy who looks at some of the recent actions GW have got the high sorcerors to take and got rather friggin’ annoyed at the fact we seem to be waiting hand and foot on the chaos hordes?

We invade the dwarf realms at huge cost and fail for them, we build a load of demon powered cannons for them (and they STILL lost the SoC), and so on. Frankly, I’m fed up of the whole ‘chaos-ish, so therefore must have demons and demon powered stuff and be practically in bed with Archaon’ theme of GW CDs atm.

Am I the only person who would like everyobdy’s favourite evil Dwarfs to have;

a) their own interests at heart, not every wannabe megalomaniac world conquering n00b wandering out of the wastes.

b) A focus on things they made themselves - the idea of demon engines and demon bound weapons looks a bit shoddy to me, since if Dwarfs can make perfectly good magic weapons without having to summon gribblies from the other realms then surely CDs should be able to as well.

Grimstonefire:

All the questions you ask are not covered by the ‘old’ fluff (i.e. White Dwarf Presents), so nobody here could answer them 100%.

There are a few fluff things that GW could do to sort them out however.

For instance, what if your answer to a) and b) was that they had to, because their survival depended on it??

Assist chaos because of you didn’t they’d send tens of thousands of marauders to besiege us forever (who’s going to help us out of that one?). Would be one fluff answer.

What if they had to daemon bind? They had no choice, because if they stopped they would eventually be destroyed? Any developments that way would be seen as a good thing.

I think the only reason CD were tied so close to Chaos in SoC is that they wouldn’t have gotten anything otherwise (and that Archaons Horde needed a siege cannon).

Not sure if you’re aware of our Nemesis Campaign efforts, but we deliberately sided ourselves with Orcs and Goblins. Well, I pushed Andy to mention us helping them anyway :wink:

Ghrask Dragh:

Interesting points, always makes for good discussion I believe

I’m not a massive fan of demon binding but if GW want to go that way with them I don’t mind too much. I like to think that the Chaos Dwarfs had the idea, studied, experimented and mastered the art of demon binding before Archaon payed them any attention at all, so we did it for ourselves and then Archaon wanted a bit of the action :smiley:

I always thought there was a fine line between Hashut and Chaos and that there would be plenty of ‘traitor’ chaos dwarfs who have forsaken Hashut and followed another god or just chaos in general.

It’s not the best but GW have to include Chaos Dwarfs the way they do, it’s not all bad though. We are a bit like servants to Chaos (:~) I agree but we are also slavers to Orcs and traders to Ogres so there is some variety

Grimstonefire:

The traitor thing is an interesting point Ghrask.  I’ll have to write a snippet of fluff on how traitors are dealt with for my fluff. (edit; that’s almost worthy of a special character actually…)

How would CD deal with those who forsake Hashut?  Would it be seen as a good thing worshiping a chaos god?

I imagine a weaponsmith worshiping one of the big 4 would be treated extremely well by the followers of chaos, worth 1000 times their weight in gold.

snowblizz:

I’m not going to say you might have misunderstood some of the fluff (or did I just do that?) but I’d say there pretty easy answers to your questions.

Who said Archaon was given the guns? CDs made the Hellcannons because they profited from it. So we did in fact do it for ourselves. I’m guessing masses of slaves (the tribes who failed Archaon), just like the Skaven got “paid” for creating Flayerkin. And the Sorcerors probably found it very interesting to bind deamons.

Invading the Dwarf realm? Are you suer it wasn’t just a slave expedition. following in the wake of an Chaos army enslaving what’s left sounds like a great idea. Doesn’t always work out though. I don’t think one should see this as something we did to help anyone else. The CDs had their own reasons good reasons.

I actually think CDs enjoy enslaving others, and essentially binding a deamon is doing precisely that. Not only do we prove our superiority we get nifty benefits out of it as well. Also CDs have a very different take on magic, I’m not entirely sure but I’m thinking a lot of the runestuff was created after the “break” with dwarfdom. I like to think of binding deamons as a twisted variant of what dwarf runecraft. Higher risk, higher pay-off.

Baggronor:

Im sure the SoC fluff says Chaos Champions exchange hundreds of slaves with the CDs for  weapons and armour, so that is definitely in CD interests.

Following in the wake of Crom’s army is also sound, as it gives CDs a chance to get back at their kin, while a bunch of marauders do the brunt of the dying for them. Sounds cool to me.

The only Demon-bound engine we have seen so far is the Hellcannon, and while it is crewed by CDs, it is part of the Chaos Warriors list and hence will be designed with them in mind. CDs fight very differently and so any new CD army book would allow many new possibilities that would either not work or be unbalanced if they were part of the Chaos Warriors list. Just as an example, the Earthshaker would be outrageous in a Chaos Warrior army, as they have multiple hard hitting, fast elites which suffer from being missile magnets. Giving these units the movement advantage and reduced shooting casualties the Shaker provides would be overpowered, but its not so for the slow-moving CD army.

As for the fluff, Grungni and the other ancestors taught the Dwarfs how to strike runes, but the Dwarfs in the east (Chaos Dwarf’s ancestors) had no such great heroes, so they didn’t have runic magic like the western Dwarfs. Daemon-binding was maybe a necessity for them.

Arakagaan Calasson:

In SoC I’m sure I read int he Dwarf fluff that we charged up Peak Pass to reinforce Crom the Conqueror when he was getting woned by the dwarfs of Karak Kadrin.

Assist chaos because of you didn’t they’d send tens of thousands of marauders to besiege us forever (who’s going to help us out of that one?). Would be one fluff answer.
But chaos is only united as long as there is an uberwarlord around. The marauders would probably not besiege us for that long before they started infighting and we could simply ride in and mop up the splattered remins of thousands of marauders into the slavepits.

There are arguments in favour of demonic binding I know, but I just think the idea of it is pretty naff personally…

Another thought I had was possibly opening up the Chaos Dwarfs to being more of a Neutral race on the world scale. So as well as traffic with Chaos on the one hand, and Ogres, then less scrupulous Empire generals or merchants could make deals with the CDs, or certainly Tileans. Perhaps a rift in the sorcerors - those who favour chaos, demons and joining with the hordes, and those who favour a more balanced, backstab everyone but also trade with them at stupidly high prices approach to world conquest.

Ghrask Dragh:

Another interesting point in the backstabbing, it happens a lot with chaos but very rarely if at all with dwarfs… so what would we do?

Would Sorcerers happily stab a fellow Sorcerer in the back to gain rank or knowledge above his own?

or

Is it all for the one cause, to aid and further the plight of our race?

The official fluff of course says that we are a dying race and therefore it would be an obvious choice to stick together, but I never liked that backstory. I think it would be much more interesting if we were ‘established’ (is that the right word?) it would lead to much more interesting stories like betrayals and rivalries between clans, which would help differ us from our vanilla cousins and make us that little bit more interesting I think. Us not being nearly extinct anymore would also allow for the option to field an all Dwarf army if you wanted to, so people could still field hobgoblins left right and centre but it wouldn’t be as essential to us as it is now.

I can certainly imagine us stabbing other races in the back :slight_smile:

The empire generals would certainly have to be on the more scrupulous side to even think about dealing with us, as long as it’s a good price I can see happening though, slaves are slaves after all :cheers

The traitor thing is an interesting point Ghrask.  I’ll have to write a snippet of fluff on how traitors are dealt with for my fluff. (edit; that’s almost worthy of a special character actually…)

Grimstonefire
Would very much like to read that :slight_smile: would be good to see more characters too, we have characters that are famous for ‘being the best’, which is essential obviously, but this guy (or girl) that strayed from Hashut would be a character with a story behind him. Something a little different is always good.

Arakagaan Calasson:

I can certainly see that there would be differences there - some would still have the lingering Dwarfish remanant of firmness and togetherness, others would have small armies of hobgoblin assassins.

Grimstonefire:

I’m sure I read somewhere that the Dwarf birth rate grew quite rapidly before and during the coming of chaos, as the winds of magic were blowing strongly.  Same for elves.

IF (and that’s a big hypothetical if), the Dark Lands themselves were magically saturated, that might mean the birth rate would remain comparatively high for CD.  It’s all relative though, because for their population to grow it means they can’t lose thousands every few years to major battles.

The upside of the magic saturation is the high birth rate, but mutations would be common, and mutant beasts would be as well.  Probably Beastmen tribes as well,

In my fluff I had it as a unique property of Obsidian, that it absorbs magic.

I like the idea that only the strongest hold onto power in CD society.  Be that on a small scale, with merchants having enough gold to hire loads of guards, on a bigger scale; with sorcerers fighting for a position on a Coven/ council.  Right at the top would be Astragoth.

I can’t see them killing each other to move up, but they would challenge each other (in reputation, combat skills, smithing skills or magic etc).  The winner would rise a little, and the loser would know their place.