[Archive] Choice between 2 lists - 2500 CD's

Groznit Goregut:

Hi All,

I’ve only got about two games in with my CD and they have actually been lower point lists (2000). That’s been much different then our local 2500 pt norm. It’s a much different game at that level. I have gone with a traditional castle in the corner and shoot/spell the bad guys. It’s a bit boring and I want something else. So, I’ve come up with two similar lists, but slightly different. I’m hoping you guys can give your opinions to see which one works best. I don’t get a lot of time to actually play to test them out a lot. I’m hoping to rely on your expertise here.

Lvl 4 Prophet (Fire) on Great Taurus (with fire breath)

Talisman of 4+, Charmed Shield, Healing Potion, & Blood of Hashut

BSB w/ Mask of Furnace, Relic Sword, and Shield

Lvl 2 (Metal) w/ enchanted shield and Dispel Scroll

30 Chaos Dwarfs w/ full command & Banner of Slavery

40 Hobgoblins w/ full command & 2 hand weapons

3 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Banner of Eternal Flame

6 K’Daai Fireborn w/ manburner

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders w/ musician & spear

K’Daai Destroyer

Or…

Lvl 4 Prophet (Fire) on Great Taurus (with fire breath)

Talisman of 4+, Charmed Shield, Healing Potion, & Blood of Hashut

BSB w/ Mask of Furnace, Relic Sword, and Shield

30 Chaos Dwarfs w/ full command & Banner of Slavery

40 Hobgoblins w/ full command & 2 hand weapons

6 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Banner of Eternal Flame

6 K’Daai Fireborn w/ manburner

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders w/ musician

K’Daai Destroyer

How will the list work? Basically, the infantry blocks go down first and attract the attention. Fireborn go on one flank of CD’s w/ BSB. Then, I use all the fast stuff on a flank to overpower it and swipe their flanks while my center holds their attention. Most likely not moving forward, but possibly.

I plan on using the lvl 4 Prophet offensively. The Taurus still gets the -1 to wound, so any light infantry won’t even be able to hurt it! The Fire mage is to use the fire magic to heal the Bull. The potion goes to heal the lvl 4. I figure I can turn him into a combat monster that can actually fight. He’s got a good armor save, WS, and the magic weapon might be pretty handy in combat. The breath weapon on the GT should also help.

Together, the K’Daai Destroyer, Great Taurus, and the Bull Centaurs should be able to smash most things on their front. As long as I distract their center, I should be alright. The Wolf Riders can help clear out chaff, go after war machines, or just sacrifice to delay things. I’ve got experience with Wolf Riders. Delay the advance on the middle. Maybe help set up the Fireborn for a counter charge.

The big difference is more Bull Centaur vs. lvl 2. The caster has the dispel scroll, which the lvl 4 doesn’t. The caster can help make the center combat blocks effective in combat in case they do. Or perhaps it forces them more into an aggressive role? I went with Metal to try to go for the buffs, and maybe the magic missile if I need it.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Karring:

I love your idea of making a combat list of CDs… although I have seen things that I do not like.

I would not include a Taurus in a 2000 points army (2500; I will begin to think about it, but less, no). You have only a few units, powerfull, but few, and Taurus do not help with that.

Changes I would do? Trying to include another IG for the Sorcerer and using Hashut Lore (it gives you decent magic distance tools, and the Breath of Heatred, really good for a combat army). And a another unit of wolfriders, for having two of these distractings units.

About BCs, I have tried them several times and I prefer two units of 3. I do not think their function were break enemy line but suppor CD units flanks. Your breakers are the K’daai, and I think you have enough with them.

… but all of this is only IMHO. I hope have been of help, dude :hat off

Time of Madness:

Alright I’ll bite.

I vote for the second list.

You have a fast army with the taurus, fireborn, destroyer, centaurs and wolf riders. Keep the 6 centaurs as they will help support the other fast elements. The extra smith would be worth it if you have some warmachines for the re-rolls. But with no warmachines I think the smith is a waste of points.

Here’s a coulpe of quick suggestions.

- Drop the banner of eternal flame on the centaurs. You have so many flaming attacks already! Spend the points on the banner of swiftness or gleaming pendant.

- Don’t think you need the relic sword on the bsb, you seem to have a bunch of throw in items/champions etc that could save you some points.

What are your intentions with the hobgoblins? Are you planning on taking advantage of the extra hand weapons for more attacks? If so maybe look at deploying the unit 10 wide for the extra rank of attacks. If you do this I’d make the unit 50 strong. You can easily find the points by dropping some of the equipment/champs etc. Heck drop a single infernal guard, make the unit 29 strong, but 30 with the bsb.

Also just notice you took the lore of fire on the lord? Why oh why would you do that? The lore of hashut or death become soooo much better when the prophet is mounted on a flyer. It really decreases the range needed on the already limited range spells.

Time of Madness

Groznit Goregut:

@Karring: Well, the list is a 2500 pt list. I was saying that the two games I have had so far are at 2000 pt, so not really valid. At 2500, I do think the Taurus becomes viable.

I don’t like having a lot of blocks of CD infantry for a combat list. I’m too slow if I face someone that wants to sit back when I don’t have any war machines. I prefer fast lists and think the game can really be won in the movement phase. I prefer fast units.

Yes, the units are not many, but they are tough and reliable. I’m moving from Orcs and Goblins and it will be hard to adjust to not having as much throw away.

@Time of Madness: Thanks for taking the time! I do appreciate it.

You do have a lot of good advice about unit champs and such. I had been tweaking the list back and forth so much and stuffing extra points here and there…then changing them around again…that I didn’t even realize that I had that many. So, here’s what I did:

  • Changed Banner of Eternal Flame to Gleaming Pennant - gives 5 pts

  • reduced CD’s to 29 for 12 pts

  • removed Hobgoblin champ for 10 pts

  • removed Fireborn champ for 10 pts



I like the Relic Sword on the BSB. What happens if a big, nasty something slams into the unit? The whole unit is only S4. I don’t want to sacrifice the armor save from shield for GW. The relic sword is a cheap item that will let me wound anything on a 5+. It’s 5 pts and it makes me feel better about the unit. I also kept the champ there to throw at any challenges that come at the BSB.

Why the Lore of Fire? Well…I want to be able to heal the Taurus. That’s it, really. I want to get into combat with these guys. I want to smash things. The Prophet really isn’t bad for combat as he is WS 5 and 3 Attacks. That’s like an Empire General. Plus, his magic weapon might make him really terrible against some enemy (Eternal Hatred, Multi Wound, Wound on 2+, or even Breath Weapon S3). I can plough these guys into the right opponent and break 'em pretty quickly, I think. Or, get the BC stuck in the front of someone and then flank 'em with the Taurus. Yes, they aren’t crazy good in combat, but they are pretty darn good!

Fireball is good to help clear out chaff. Fire-Cloak helps in combat. Sword of Rhuin helps in combat. Flame Cage can help control the more numerous enemy. The others aren’t so good.

Lore of Hashut has spells that are good at a distance and not being in combat. All the spells are not very good in combat. If I were to just dance around and cast spells, why don’t I just go on a Llammasu with Shadow instead? If so, then that’s 50 pts to find somewhere.

Groznit Goregut:

Lore of Hashut has spells that are good at a distance and not being in combat. All the spells are not very good in combat. If I were to just dance around and cast spells, why don't I just go on a Llammasu with Shadow instead? If so, then that's 50 pts to find somewhere.
This is a serious question. Should I just use a Llammasu instead and go with Lore of Hashut? Or is it still better to do a Great Taurus?

frogbear:

I thought your goal was not to sit back and cast spells as it was boring. If that is still the case, I would stick with the Taurus and have some fun.

Time of Madness:

Well it appears we play a slightly different style with flying prophets. I tend to keep mine out of combat casting and then pounce later in the game if I need to.

Ultimately if you want combat prophet you should really be taking a bale taurus. The extra T and W really make a big difference.

Don’t take a lammsu for combat! The lammasu is way better suited for sitting back and casting (plus giving you the option to take shadow magic). Lammasu’s only have 2 attacks.

Hope that helps,

Time of Madness

Groznit Goregut:

Well, I wouldn’t sit back with the Lammasu. I’d try to dance around the enemy ranks and cause havoc to their units. It would be a matter of casting spells at those units that I really need to affect that round. Shadow magic and the Hexes from Lore of Hashut can really cause a win on the right combat. Could also cast some of the blasting spells when needed, too. So, I wouldn’t just sit around doing nothing. I played with a Wyvern in 7th Ed for my OnG and have a good idea of where to put my flying Lord where he can’t be charged, but can really be a problem.

Here’s the list with the Lammasu, going that way instead:

Lvl 4 Prophet (Hashut) on Lammasu (Shadow) (with lvl 2 boost)

Talisman of 4+, Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield, & Blood of Hashut

BSB w/ Mask of Furnace, Relic Sword, and Shield

29 Chaos Dwarfs w/ full command & Banner of Slavery

50 Hobgoblins w/ full command & 2 hand weapons

5 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Gleaming Pennant

6 K’Daai Fireborn w/ manburner

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders w/ musician & Spears

K’Daai Destroyer

I’d be more tempted to give the Bull Centaurs the Flaming Banner now as there is one less unit with flaming (Taurus). It would also matter more if I do take Lore of Hashut and get Ash Storm.

Bolg:

Give your Hobs Handweapon + shield, that 5+ 6++parry save is so much better than that extra attack at S3. (I am talking from experiences here, trust me)

Swap you wolfboys for a Khan on a wolf with the dragon helm, he can do what they do and is better and more reliable at it, also he can pin a destroyer of you happen to meet an opponent with a Destroyer to.

Always go for Hashut for your Prophet. Drop the banner of Slavery. 6 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Gleaming Pennant -> reroll first failed LD test so much better than flaming attacks, you have enough flaming attacks, you dont need more. swap the enchanted shield of your babysitter for the charmed shield so he can take 1 cannon ball in the face (on a 2+)

Groznit Goregut:

6 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Gleaming Pennant -> reroll first failed LD test so much better than flaming attacks, you have enough flaming attacks, you dont need more. swap the enchanted shield of your babysitter for the charmed shield so he can take 1 cannon ball in the face (on a 2+)

Bolg
So....this really confuses me. Do you think I should go with 6 Bull Centaurs or go with the lvl 2 "baby sitter"? And you think I should remove the charmed shield from the lvl 4 on Taurus to give to a lvl 2 sitting in a unit of infantry? I'm thinking you just didn't see it on the lvl 4. Still, though, do you think the 6 BC are better than the extra lvl 2?
Give your Hobs Handweapon + shield, that  5+ 6++parry save is so much better than that extra attack at S3. (I am talking from experiences here, trust me)

Bolg
Hmmm....I can see that the shield can have it's benefits. I was really hoping to go with a unit that might look deceptively weak and then kick butt. Two hand weapons would work better if I had another lvl 2 in the main block to buff them. I haven't built my Hobs yet. I might actually go for the shields. Damn....I wish it were easy to figure out now.
Swap you wolfboys for a Khan on a wolf with the dragon helm, he can do what they do and is better and more reliable at it, also he can pin a destroyer of you happen to meet an opponent with a Destroyer to.

Bolg
I've played a lot of OnG and I know that the Goblin character on Wolf is pretty good. I've done some amazing things with him, especially with Dragon Helm. I have also had him not be able to do things that a unit of Wolf Riders can. He only has 2 wounds, which can hurt. He's been killed in combats that a unit of Wolf Riders would easily win. He's died from a little bit of shooting and bad armor saves. Also, the Hobgoblin hero loses Vanguard. In the OnG book, there is a monster entry for the wolf that gives it Vanguard, which means the hero can get it alone on a wolf. Not the case with the Hobgoblins. The idea of needing someone to stop a flaming monster is also uncertain. There are a number of things that have great ward saves vs. flaming attacks in the list and I might not need someone to go against another K'Daai. Not sure how many are in our local area. I MIGHT need one, but I'll try things out with a unit of Wolf Riders for now.
Always go for Hashut for your Prophet.

Bolg
Alright....I was just listening to WiscoDice review of CD's and I can see the power of the spell list. I wonder, though, if it's better for me to go with a Lammasu instead of a Taurus? Should I get stuck into combat with the Taurus Lord? Or dance around and harass with the Lamassu?
Drop the banner of Slavery.  

Bolg
Why? If some spell forces a panic test on the Hobgoblins, I am worried that my Prophet will be away and not able to give his Ld. Ld 6 is NOT that great, even with a BSB nearby. One bad spell or casket or hell cannon or.....can cause the large bunker to run away. To spend 35 pts on some insurance against that? I say hell yeah! After years of Orcs and Goblins, I want some reliability in my list.

Bolg:

Sorry for the confusing tips. I meant them in general, not as edits on on or both lists. My preference would go to the 2nd list, it has a unit of 6 centaurs and I love those guys.

I Have the Hobs with additional weapons, so I gave them a try. I love hordes but sometimes you need to reform to tarpit just cos something needs pinned. Handweapon + shield is best in both options; as a horde those 10 extra S3 attacks wont be as useful as the way better survivability and as a tarpit additional weapons are just useless… just build the models to have both, extra weapons and shield on their back, no problems with WYSIWYG and great for a change in plans.

The wolfboys/Khan, A well its just my personal preference. (I say a W2 T4 LD7 save 3+ is more reliable than W5 T3 LD6 save 5+ that suffers from animosity.)

As for the Lamasu/Tuarus I have no experience with any of them but I think the lammasu is the cooler option. there you have shadow magic again(best signature spell in the game).

Interesting point on the banner of slavery, I had the classic (RH) rules in mind, but I just read the newer version, I quite like it. If I ever play a 2nd unit of Hobs I will surely bring it.

Have fun.

Groznit Goregut:

Well, I found that the two hand weapons were too hard to really model easily on so many. I went with hand weapon and shield. I can see the point. I just like the idea of having a horde of Hobgoblins dice something up. Maybe if I had a 2nd supporting wizard with the main body.

I’ll have to see how Animosity is. It’s no where near as bad as Orcs and Goblins, though, so I might be OK. Oh, just looked. 1 in 3 means something bad. 1 is probably not so bad as the Prophet will have 18" leadership, but the 6 is the worst for these guys. Maybe the armor will save them? I can see using the hero. I’ll try both. Being within 6" of a CD or BC helps, though.

frogbear:

Here's the list with the Lammasu, going that way instead:

Lvl 4 Prophet (Hashut) on Lammasu (Shadow) (with lvl 2 boost)
Talisman of 4+, Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield, & Blood of Hashut

BSB w/ Mask of Furnace, Relic Sword, and Shield

29 Chaos Dwarfs w/ full command & Banner of Slavery
50 Hobgoblins w/ full command & 2 hand weapons

5 Bull Centaurs w/ full command, Great Weapons, & Gleaming Pennant
6 K'Daai Fireborn w/ manburner

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders w/ musician & Spears
K'Daai Destroyer

I'd be more tempted to give the Bull Centaurs the Flaming Banner now as there is one less unit with flaming (Taurus).  It would also matter more if I do take Lore of Hashut and get Ash Storm.

Groznit Goregut
I like this list. While people generally do not like the Destroyer, I do not think that they can really complain about this list.

It has character (Lammasu) so I think it is a winner

Groznit Goregut:

Bonus is that it does well (or at least not bad) under the Swedish Comp that seems to be used a lot around my area these days. :hat off