[Archive] Count as Dwarf List

Willmark:

Note this is purely looking at this from the modeling perspective. Haven’t seen it discussed to much anywhere else on the site

Lords

Chaos Dwarf Lord= Dwarf Lord

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord= Runelord

Heroes

Chaos Dwarf Hero= Thane

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer= Runesmith

Core

Chaos Dwarf Warriors= Dwarf Warriors

Chaos Dwarf Immortals= Longbeards

Blunderbussers= Thunderers

Quarrelers= Hobgoblin Archers

Sneaky Gits = Rangers

Special

Miners= ?

Hammerers= ?

Ironbreakers= ?

Slayers= ?

Death Rocket= Grudge Thrower

Hobgoblin Bolt throwers= Dwarf Bolt Throwers

Cannons= make suitable evil looking chaos dwarf cannons

Rare

Earthshaker/Hellcannon = Flame Cannon

Dogs of War Heavy Cavalry= Bull Centaurs

Dogs of War- Light Cavalry= Hobbo Wolf Boyz

Lord on Taurus/Sorcerer Lord on Lammasu=Gyrocopter?

Anvil of Doom= ?

The problems as far as I see it are this:

Hobbo Wolf Boyz. The Dwarf list doesn�?Tt have cavalry bases in core anywhere. Thus they would have to shift to Rare and most likely never be used. Bulls as DoW HC does become appealing thou�?�

Orcs- being on those damn 25mm bases is the sticking point each time.

Overall Specials is the toughest part to integrate. Direct equivalent of a Miner in the chaos Dwarf list? There isn�?Tt, maybe model slaves mining�?�

For my own part I could use my Chaos Dwarf Lord on his throne as a stand in for Thorgrimm Grudgebearer�?�

Feel free to discuss:

metro_gnome:

yeah… best to give up on the green…

a dwarf list has decidedly less models in it anyway…

I figure astragoth makes for a fine master engineer…

Infantry specials would have to be converted… I’d prolly just use machines tho…

i’d use the ES as a grudge thrower… and the death rocket as a cannon… BT as well BT…

BCs as DoW cav… but im not sure if you are on any more stable group there…

Anvil is a hack job… I’ve been looking at the OOP Cauldron of Blood… with out the wheelz of course…

Willmark:

To be quite honest DoW has pobably a better shot then then CDs. Conversely Chaos has problems as a count as list as well two. Mainly the fact of the 25mm base figuring into dwarfs…

clam:

Haven't seen it discussed to much anywhere else on the site

Willmark
You are probably right about that, but we do have this thread though:

https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/6750

And Grimstonefire had a go one a count as dwarf list here - too.

Willmark:

Actually minty’s idea of Dogs of War is the best I’ve seen so far be the corrections noted there in. They are the only other army that has mix of bases as we do…

metro_gnome:

no I think DoW are just as out in the cold as us, Cult of Slaanesh and clan eshin…

The good thing about the dwarf book is that it is one of the last books to list DoW as a rare choice…

making them hard to be refused at a tourney as single units… but still easy to squat as a whole army…

Thommy H:

What about a Kislev allied contingent to represent the Hobgoblins and Bull Centaurs? Horse Archers = Wolfboyz, Winged Lancers = Centaurs and Kossars = ordinary hobgobbos (you might need to improvise a fluff reason to explain the great weapons though…). It has the advantage of not requiring expenditure of Rare slots for cheap, basic units.

I’d also use Ironbreakers as Immortals, not Longbeards.

wallacer:

Chaos Dwarfs with Great Weapons would be fine as Hammerers.

The Hellcannon crew would make more than passable miners.

The Hell Cannon itself could easily suffice as a Dwarf Cannon (well, relatively easily).

Some of the old 3rd edition norse style Chaos Dwarfs would make adequate Slayers.

An anvil should be easy enough to convert.

Willmark:

Get some of the old beserker models too methinks.

cornixt:

Here is what I wrote a long time ago, so some of it is out of date. There are two articles, I know I had a third which is exactly what Willmark is after, but I can’t find it.

Using or building a Dwarf army as a Chaos Dwarf army

----------------------------------------------------

If you have or intend to get a Dwarf army and want to use it as a Chaos Dwarf army, this article will show you the easiest way to go about this.

Dwarf Warriors - These are the backbone of both armies. The models are cheap and easy to convert to look like the Hellcannon Chaos Dwarfs: Just sculpt a mask or shielding over the eyes and/or a slightly different helmet. This method can be used for all Dwarfs in the army, even the war machine crew.

Rangers, Miners, Hammerers, Iron Breakers, Longbeards can also be used as Chaos Dwarf Warriors and can be converted like normal Dwarf Warriors or in other ways to make them look more evil.

Thunderers - Easily used as Chaos Dwarfs with Blunderbusses. Convert in the same way as Warriors.

Bolt Thrower - Needs Hobgoblin crew ideally, but any Goblins or Gnoblars will do.

Cannon - Ideal for use as a Death Rocket.

Flame Cannon/Stone Thrower- An Earthshaker.

Dwarf units without a use:

Slayers, Gyrocopter, Organ Gun

Chaos Dwarf units without a Dwarf equivalent:

Hobgoblins, Goblins, Orcs, Black Orcs, and Bull Centaur

If you already have a Dwarf army and want to use it as a Chaos Dwarf army then you are restricted in several ways. Firstly, you won’t have any Dwarf models to represent certain units. Notably these are Hobgoblins, Goblins, Orcs, Black Orcs, and Bull Centaurs. Unless you have an Orc&Goblin army then you are unlikely to have any of the first four, so you can either borrow some, buy some, substitute in another unit to represent them, or simply not have any in your army. All Dwarf models have 20mm bases, which means that if you sub you can only sub Dwarfs as Hobgoblins or Goblins. The unit will have to be big and distinctive since these greenskins are mostly only useful in large numbers and are very different to normal Dwarfs. Slayers might be best for this and have the added advantage of not being useful as any other Chaos Dwarf unit.

Using Chaos Dwarfs as Dwarfs - Allies

------------------------------------

With the addition of the Kislev force, a new way of playing Chaos Dwarfs as Dwarfs has opened up. Previously, Hobgoblin units and Bull Centaurs could only be represented using DoW rules. This limited them to only one or two units and takes up valuable Rare slots. Kislev however, are an allied force with Dwarfs, meaning you can take up to 50% of the total points value of the combined force and they don’t take up any slots in the Dwarf army. The downside is that the Dwarf army section is reduced in size, limiting the number of Special, Rare and character slots to a smaller number.

Unit Selection

Kislev has some fast cavalry equipped with bows (Ungol Horse Archers). They not only look but act very much like you’d expect Mongol Hobgoblins, so it isn’t too great a leap for those who have those models. They have BS 4 which accounts for their high points cost (17pts) and the minimum unit size is 5+.

The foot troops (Kislev Kossars) are basically humans so they are only slightly better than a standard Hobgoblin stats-wise anyway. They are a whopping 9 pts each (this includes bow and great weapon) so they aren’t quite the horde they could have been and they still have a good chance of being outnumbered by Chaos Dwarfs. They are excellent missile and combat troops though.

Bull Centaurs can make an appearance as the Heavy Cavalry units. For 24pts you get a normal human on a warhorse with lance and all the armour (Winged Lancers). For an extra 2 pts they are strength 4, although these are 0-1 Special (Gryphon Legion). You may need to use Bull Centaurs as these though if you plan on using many Hobgoblin units because your Kislev Core troops are limited in number (unlike normal armies).

Characters

There is only one normal character who is a rather standard human hero. He could be used to represent either a Hobgoblin or Bull Centaur character, and you can have several but one must be chosen as the general of the Kislev Force. The special characters are a level 4 wizard on a horse and a beefy man on a bear. These cost a lot of points which would drain the points in all but the largest battles. The use of magic is tempting but a single sorcerer like this needs other magical back up and this just isn’t available when playing as a Dwarf army. Both would be good for representing interesting Chaos Dwarf characters though.

Overall

Lots of playable choice for those who want to play a Mongol style Hobgoblin force or as part of their Chaos Dwarf army being used as Dwarfs. The availability of Bull Centaur style units is a good bonus too. They aren’t quite the numerous slaves though due to high points costs all round.

Willmark:

Isn’t Kislev verboten as an army now too?

Here’s how the best canidate stack up in terms of "Count as"
Chaos= fit in some areas mostly lacking in terms of missile troops.
DoW= if the army wasnt predicated on pikes and the crossbow at core this would be the best choice IMHO.
Dwarfs= the obvious choice but many gaps between the two.

metro_gnome:

yes it is…
i find it remarkable that a thread starts as “let’s look at an alternative and legal army list”…
degenerates into you could use this obscure and illegal list… or you could use that obscure and illegal list…
instead of playing our own obscure and illegal list…

Willmark:

Simply throwing out suggestions. Grim has made some convincing arguements for Empire. I

typing up a bunch of possibilities for the morrow.

This is purely an execise should I want to play somewhere and I can’t because of CDs current state.

Thommy H:

yes it is...
i find it remarkable that a thread starts as "let's look at an alternative and legal army list"...
degenerates into you could use this obscure and illegal list... or you could use that obscure and illegal list...
instead of playing our own obscure and illegal list...

metro_gnome
Actually, the Kislev list is still on GW's UK website. Whether it's "legal" or not depends on whatever nebulous definition you use for that word, but it's certainly more legal than CD at this moment in time.

Willmark:

Feels like we need lawyers around here with the word legal be flung around so much. Or as they are called in the UK Barrister?

Thommy H:

Barrister or solicitor, yes. They’re two slightly different kinds of lawyer though, so I think the blanket term still applies.

Anyway, I don’t subscribe to any definition of “legality” in a game, except as regards how it affects the willingness of opponents to play against my army. I wouldn’t expect a stranger to line up against an army whose rules I’d just written myself in crayon in a dog-eared notepad, but I was quite happy having a booklet that said my army was “legal” and a place on the GW website to which I could direct them if they still had doubts.

Right now I just have an old booklet and can’t prove that Chaos Dwarfs aren’t just a 6th Edition relic… I might as well show up with a Squat army.

Realistically, it doesn’t affect my gaming now because my Chaos Dwarfs are established as legal within my current gaming group. When I move away (as I will in a few months), finding new opponents may be hard.

metro_gnome:

if you can make a case for Kislev you can make a case for RH…

anyone lax enough to let you put Kislev on the table… will let you use your CDs…

I’m just commenting on the moth to flame mentality…

"my army is short listed, so I’ll invest in the next one to go"

You generally don’t need a barrister… you just need GWs tourney rules… and everything sorts itself out…

Canix:

Personaly i think that a good mix of 3rd edition dwarves, marauders will give you the other dwarf units no problem

2h wpn wielders=longbeards

hand wpn and shield=miners rangers,ironbreakers or hammerers

chaos beserkers (unarmoured 3rd ed)=slayers

I have a gyrocopter being converted and a alter being built but of course lammusu or taurus could be used for the gyrocopter:hat

I love the idea of the BC as dow cavalry i will have to see what the tournament rules are like this year lol

AGPO:

I think the best policy here is just to convert a suitably evil dwarf list. After all Chaos Dwarfs have had so many incarnations you can create your own units without too much worry.

Characters:

Lord/Thane = CD Lord/Hero

Runesmith = Priest of Hashut

Engineer = Sorcerer-Engineer

Slayer Hero = Hashut’s Champion (Complete nutter “blessed” by Hashut)

Core:

Warriors/Crossbows = Warriors/Crossbows

Thunderers = Blunderbusses

Longbeards = Veterans

Special:

Miners = Pitmasters (Dawizhaar have mines too after all)

Hammerers = Ziggurat Guard

Ironbreakers = Immortals

Cannon = Deathrocket

Grudgethrower = Earthshaker

Bolt thrower = Bolt thrower (needs Dawizhaar crew)

Slayers = Berzerkers

Rare:

Gyrocopter = Taurus (steam cannon = breath attack)

Flamecannon = Hellcannon

Organ Gun = Gatling Gun

Ogres/DoW = Auxillaries

Character upgrades:

Shieldbearers = Palaquin

Oathstone = Icon of Hashut

Anvil of Doom = Altar of Hashut

BLOOD AXE:

Awesome AGPO!

thanks!