[Archive] Culture and Hierarchy [long]

Drychnath:

I have read by way of asides in several other threads views of Chaos Dwarf social conventions. I thought I’d bring the subject up, especially given the incredibly important (indeed, dominant) role it plays in Dwarf fluff.

My thoughts on how it would likely work essentially break down to grim pragmatism. For example, a Dawi Zharr’s position in the hierarchy might break down based on the following factors:

1) Magical ability.

2) Age.

3) Military ability.

4) Wealth.

5) Slaves.

Now, the latter two are largely the metrics of success for first three - good sorcerers and commanders are successful at acquiring slaves, slaves are used to generate wealth (through mining, manufacture, or as a commodity themselves). The oldest have wisdom in the ways of slave-taking, war, magic, etc. I imagine the Dawi Zharr are proof-is-in-the-pudding sort of folks. Clearly, if you haven’t been able to acquire slaves and wealth, you have no ability or worthwhile wisdom.

I furthermore suggest that society is a brutal meritocracy: nepotism only flourishes in areas where your abilities aren’t put to the test, and I hardly think impotent sorcery, inability to conduct slave raids, poor resource management, and inability to defend against periodic incursions from Chaos, Ogre, or Orc and Goblin hordes are qualities that would go untested.

Here is the primary motivation for writing this thread - a general lack of Chaos Dwarf idealism. This bears some thinking on, and I’m going to diverge from several other schools of thought here.

For the Dwarfs, craft, mining, courage and oathkeeping are all cultural ideals. Most of the Dwarf history and nearly all of their interactions with other cultures reflect these ideals, especially where they carry beyond what is reasonable, efficient, or in the best interests of the Dwarfs.

I do not imagine the Chaos Dwarfs to hold to any of this as an abstract ideal. I imagine fierce pride in their craft - the better to slay, or inspire fear, or sell to others. Mining is left largely to slave labor - a means to acquire wealth, not because of a spiritual inclination. Here’s the important part - I do not imagine the Chaos Dwarfs to be treacherous. I figure their concept of honor to be demonstrated following through of bargains and promises, not a higher moral standard.

Grim pragmatism governs their qualities. They respect ties of blood because if Chaos Dwarf society fractures amidst internecine fighting they will be drowned in a rebellion of slaves, or overthrown by rambunctious neighbors who envy their wealth. The risk is far greater than individual advantage to be gained. They respect hierarchy because it is all likely a product of demonstrated ability - and while their greed is doubtless less restrained, they probably grasp that their own long term self interest is better served by observing the customs rather than trying to supplant someone for brief wealth before the fall. They keep their word, likely even to outsiders, because a businessman is only as good as his word. No one cares to deal with the treacherous unless it is necessary, and what is futile is never necessary.

I also would expect pragmatism to be the extent of it - loyalty to Chaos Dwarf interests is a matter of self interest rather than personal faith. I expect there would be maneuvering, manipulating, trading and bargaining to get around inside the hierarchy, between equivalent members, for the opportunity for advancement, for personal grudges, or any of a thousand other reasons, all to be put aside the instant the practical realities assert themselves. This puts them below the Dwarfs in terms of quality of social fabric, but higher than the Dark Elves, for whom the appearance of orderly behavior renders any treachery fair play (save dealings with the Witch King), and far above the Skaven, for whom treachery is the only convention.

I’d write more, but it’s damned long as-is. What are your thoughts?

Grimstonefire:

Long?  You should see one of Thommy’s stories ;)  (joke).

That is a very well written description I must say, a couple of slaves for your effort I think.

Am I right in thinking that you are basically looking at what motivates a CD in life?

I hadn’t considered the extent of pragmatism specifically as part of their culture before, but what you are describing has some merit.

Basically that because of their small numbers and their obvious need for slaves they have to be extremely pragmatic in most areas of life?  This does not necessarily hold true all the time, I think it would depend on their profession.  If CD were the ultimate pragmatists they would not have decorative artisans for instance (if I understand correctly), which seems distinctly un-dwarfish imo, though perhaps that was the idea?

Your idea of respect towards hierachy because of abilty does sound quite interesting.  So a CD would not for instance bankrupt a nearby clan and sell their assets just because of greed because in the long run he would realise that the ability of others to generate profit is better for everyone?  The sorcerers leave mining clans alone to mine because they’re good at it rather than forcing them into being farmers etc just because they can.

That is a different view to some on here, that a social hierarchy for the CD can exist on anything other than forced enslavement because of rank/ traditions.  But I quite like the idea overall.

Your early point on the sorcerers being good at getting slaves, imo they are only as good as the army/ clan resources they command.  So they would not theoretically gather power by anything other than intimidation or tradition if they didn’t go to war.  They certainly wouldn’t gather economic success by magic alone unless they could create gold…

Drychnath:

Thank you for your kind words.  Addressing your questions in order:

"Am I right in thinking that you are basically looking at what motivates a CD in life?"

Yes - for the sake of determining how to interpret/write fluff, how the army would be organized, conduct of campaigns, etc.

"Basically that because of their small numbers and their obvious need for slaves they have to be extremely pragmatic in most areas of life?"

Yes, exactly.  I also agree with the comment following the question - while I figure the Chaos Dwarfs would be pragmatic of necessity, I do not expect they would hold pragmatism up as an ideal.  I’ll expand a bit on this idea later.

"So a CD would not for instance bankrupt a nearby clan and sell their assets just because of greed because in the long run he would realise that the ability of others to generate profit is better for everyone?"

That’s likely the case - provided selling off everything would decrease war production, or flow of materiel from the mines, or render a sizable chunk of Chaos Dwarf population incapable of rendering service because of lack of equipment or what have you.  A vast majority of the population would, it seems to me, have vested interests in society that wouldn’t tolerate radical disruptions.  There are other things to consider, like how the trading partners or tribute-holders of that clan would react.  Anything on such a scale as you suggest would likely reach very quickly up to the higher, if not highest, echelons of council.  I imagine the sorcerer whose clan was just liquidated and rendered destitute would be very upset.  What cost his withdrawal of expertise from crafting engines of war?

"Your early point on the sorcerers being good at getting slaves, imo they are only as good as the army/ clan resources they command."

Just so, just so.  However, sorcerers are the ones chiefly responsible for the terrible war engines that give Chaos Dwarfs such an advantage in the field, especially over potential slave-peoples like Goblin hordes.  Despite the inarguable superiority of the individual, surely Dawi Zharr understand better than any the necessity of keeping pointless casualties to a minimum.  So a sorcerer’s ability would largely be measured by diligence and success in the production of war machines and advanced equipment for his clan and forces.

Pragmatism of Necessity:

Revisiting this idea, I emphasize that pragmatism is a matter of the requirements of survival.  The history of the fall of the Dawi Zharr is not as much a matter of seduction into evil, but the breaking of traditional values through cataclysm, and corruption through direct exposure to raw Chaos. So, then, the Chaos Dwarfs can be arrived at through applying the influences of necessity and corruption to Dwarfish qualities, and - in my opinion likely a lesser though still significant extent - the influence of Hashut as their god. So:

Craft: Equip to the highest military standards, sell in the name of greed, and give the slaves inferior equipment for efficiency and to ensure superiority. Elements such as decoration are no longer strictly a matter of aesthetic pleasure and craftsman’s pride, but to inspire fear and demonstrate wealth and status.

Mining: Extract wealth at the cost of outsiders, i.e. slaves. The absence of an Ancestor God’s guidance debases the process, and the exposure to Chaos likely enhances the natural Dwarfish acquisitiveness to avarice. Individual miner’s safety

Baggronor:

Grim pragmatism governs their qualities. They respect ties of blood because if Chaos Dwarf society fractures amidst internecine fighting they will be drowned in a rebellion of slaves, or overthrown by rambunctious neighbors who envy their wealth. The risk is far greater than individual advantage to be gained. They respect hierarchy because it is all likely a product of demonstrated ability - and while their greed is doubtless less restrained, they probably grasp that their own long term self interest is better served by observing the customs rather than trying to supplant someone for brief wealth before the fall. They keep their word, likely even to outsiders, because a businessman is only as good as his word. No one cares to deal with the treacherous unless it is necessary, and what is futile is never necessary.
I think you hit it on the head :) although I do think they have scruples of a sort. I think they would see backstabbing and deceit as primitive, disgusting behaviour (typical of humans, elves and greenskins) not just as counter-productive.
I also would expect pragmatism to be the extent of it - loyalty to Chaos Dwarf interests is a matter of self interest rather than personal faith. I expect there would be maneuvering, manipulating, trading and bargaining to get around inside the hierarchy, between equivalent members, for the opportunity for advancement, for personal grudges, or any of a thousand other reasons, all to be put aside the instant the practical realities assert themselves. This puts them below the Dwarfs in terms of quality of social fabric, but higher than the Dark Elves, for whom the appearance of orderly behavior renders any treachery fair play (save dealings with the Witch King), and far above the Skaven, for whom treachery is the only convention.
I think this is an important point of difference to the other evil races, potentially a defining trait for CDs.
If CD were the ultimate pragmatists they would not have decorative artisans for instance (if I understand correctly), which seems distinctly un-dwarfish imo, though perhaps that was the idea?
Ornamentation still serves a purpose. A mighty lord needs to be able to show off his wealth after all, particularly if it impresses new customers or intimidates his rivals. I'm sure they would ofc steal the artisans copyright though... ;P
They certainly wouldn't gather economic success by magic alone unless they could create gold...
Or Daemonic war machines to sell to other clans :)
The sorcerers leave mining clans alone to mine because they're good at it rather than forcing them into being farmers etc just because they can.
Well, he can't pay them to mine for him if they've become farmers.

Drychnath:

Thank you for your kind words.  Addressing your questions in order:

"Am I right in thinking that you are basically looking at what motivates a CD in life?"

Yes - for the sake of determining how to interpret/write fluff, how the army would be organized, conduct of campaigns, etc.

"Basically that because of their small numbers and their obvious need for slaves they have to be extremely pragmatic in most areas of life?"

Yes, exactly.  I also agree with the comment following the question - while I figure the Chaos Dwarfs would be pragmatic of necessity, I do not expect they would hold pragmatism up as an ideal.  I’ll expand a bit on this idea later.

"So a CD would not for instance bankrupt a nearby clan and sell their assets just because of greed because in the long run he would realise that the ability of others to generate profit is better for everyone?"

That’s likely the case - provided selling off everything would decrease war production, or flow of materiel from the mines, or render a sizable chunk of Chaos Dwarf population incapable of rendering service because of lack of equipment or what have you.  A vast majority of the population would, it seems to me, have vested interests in society that wouldn’t tolerate radical disruptions.  There are other things to consider, like how the trading partners or tribute-holders of that clan would react.  Anything on such a scale as you suggest would likely reach very quickly up to the higher, if not highest, echelons of council.  I imagine the sorcerer whose clan was just liquidated and rendered destitute would be very upset.  What cost his withdrawal of expertise from crafting engines of war?

"Your early point on the sorcerers being good at getting slaves, imo they are only as good as the army/ clan resources they command."

Just so, just so.  However, sorcerers are the ones chiefly responsible for the terrible war engines that give Chaos Dwarfs such an advantage in the field, especially over potential slave-peoples like Goblin hordes.  Despite the inarguable superiority of the individual, surely Dawi Zharr understand better than any the necessity of keeping pointless casualties to a minimum.  So a sorcerer’s ability would largely be measured by diligence and success in the production of war machines and advanced equipment for his clan and forces.

Pragmatism of Necessity:

Revisiting this idea, I emphasize that pragmatism is a matter of the requirements of survival.  The history of the fall of the Dawi Zharr is not as much a matter of seduction into evil, but the breaking of traditional values through cataclysm, and corruption through direct exposure to raw Chaos.  So, then, the Chaos Dwarfs can be arrived at through applying the influences of necessity and corruption to Dwarfish qualities, and - in my opinion likely a lesser though still significant extent - the influence of Hashut as their god.  So:

Craft: Equip to the highest military standards, sell in the name of greed, and give the slaves inferior equipment for efficiency and to ensure superiority.  Elements such as decoration are no longer strictly a matter of aesthetic pleasure and craftsman’s pride, but to inspire fear and demonstrate wealth and status.

Mining: Extract wealth at the cost of outsiders, i.e. slaves.  The absence of an Ancestor God’s guidance debases the process, and the exposure to Chaos likely enhances the natural Dwarfish acquisitiveness to avarice.  Individual miner’s safety is a minimum concern, and mines are developed only insofar as productivity is concerned.  Ornamentation likely only serves to remind slaves they will be sacrificed for misbehavior.

Kin: Chaos Dwarfs before outsiders.  Stability.  Surety.  Necessity.

Religion: The introduction of sacrifice in order to please Hashut, at the expense of other peoples - prisoners and slaves.

Disposition: The corrupting influence of Chaos, cataclysm, and constant pressures in the hostile Dark Lands likely pushed contempt to cruelty, greed to avarice, and retributive justice to brutally vengeful sadism.

Baggronor covered some of this in his post (curse the necessity for multi-stage drafting here).  Thank you for your thoughts also, Baggronor.

Drychnath:

I think I’ll be using this thread to periodically record these ideas. Hence the customarily uncouth double-post; I ask the forbearance of the collective.

Some of this is in reaction to the Indy GT Dwarfs of Chaos book which I just recently downloaded.

Further exploring the disposition of the individual Chaos Dwarf, I imagine they retain, and perhaps exaggerate, the industrious nature of their cousins. A Chaos Dwarf is not, it seems to me, likely to be interested in the more time-consuming elements of leisure that a Dwarf might pursue, such as quality time with the family. Aside from the necessary instruction in the arts of war, craft, trade, and obedience, I rather doubt they spend any time together at all. Demonstrations of affection would be limited to rare expressions of pride. Leisure activities would probably include gladiatorial events like pit fighting, drinking, votive rights to Hashut, training and some sort of competitions amongst themselves. Challenges of strength, endurance, and pain seem like the ones that would make the most sense. Also trade-specific challenges. Slave-breaking or whipping, for example.

Further expanding on the theme of industriousness, given the familial relationship nature of society, I expect the manner in which a Chaos Dwarf might be rewarded for his service is primarily a matter of being able to keep a portion of his production back for himself. This, in tandem with the customary warlord-style gifts of wealth, weapons, or slaves for deeds of note would provide a strong appeal to the avaricious nature of the Dawi Zharr, and allow them to move upward in society as far as ability is likely to carry them.

Vis-a-vis power relationships: I actually tend to agree with the faction that suggests the power upper members of the hierarchy wield nearly absolute power over the lower. What the Chaos Dwarfs seem to have is a form of tribal theocracy, powerfully enhanced by their industrial abilities. Especially given the clan basis for loyalties (which can’t be readily altered), a lower-level Dawi Zharr would have little choice but to accede to to the wishes of his clan superiors. We again return to pragmatism as the general form of restraint - for smiths without tools, warriors without weapons or training, etc. cannot be expected to produce at full capacity. There might additionally be certain sacrosanct customs - like the inability to take the tools of a tradesman, the weapons and armor of a warrior, or a set portion of the plunder they gather. This is given added impetus by any expansion of the worship of Hashut in terms of importance, since an individual Chaos Dwarf could be expected to provide sacrifices of slaves and wealth individually, and not just on the part of the clan as a whole. There a method of generating individual wealth is a requirement for collective survival, since failure to offer fealty to the gods has a bad habit of being lethal in environs favored by Chaos.

Vis-a-vis slaves: this is another point where I am divergent from an apparent popular consensus. I do not imagine Chaos Dwarfs as treating their slaves in quite as poor a day-to-day fashion as everyone else seems to. First and foremost, I very much like the idea of O&G units being taken as slave troops, as in the Ravening Hordes list. A more sophisticated use of slaves than hurling chattel around as expendable assets, and represents, to my mind, the traditional Dwarfish habit of maximizing productivity. As far as work in the mines and forges are concerned, even short term survival is chancy considering the environment. For a malnourished weakling, the chances of productivity are zero. I feel given the isolated nature of their civilization, and the frequency with which they already have to pass through a very long journey, often through Ogre or Goblin intermediaries (neither of whom are gentle), and the punishing nature of the work itself, that they’d at least ensure a minimum of nutrition.

Further, as to cruelty. I am not convinced that the idea of cruelty as an art form is at all appropriate for the Chaos Dwarfs, especially applied to slaves. Time spent torturing a slave is time taken away from the sacrifice to the glory of Hashut, or from the forge for armories of Zharr Naggrund, or whatever other endeavor. Except for rare occasions, it would make more sense to me for the maintenance of a callous, direct, and efficient brutality. If they flag in their efforts, whip them until they motivate or be sacrificed. If they are insubordinate, sacrifice them. If they do something dangerous, kill them on the spot. Simple. Effective. Not wasteful.

I suggest a uniquely Chaos Dwarf manner of slave culture be adopted - as opposed to the seeming “We treat slaves just as the Dark Elves do, except where we treat them like the Skaven do instead!” After all, for Dark Elves, Ogres, and Skaven slaves are a matter of luxury or amusement. For Dawi Zharr, they are a vital element of the structure of society. And when was any Dwarf not a total master of necessary crafts?

Next time - the limits of pragmatism, and counter-pressures.

Baggronor:

Further, as to cruelty. I am not convinced that the idea of cruelty as an art form is at all appropriate for the Chaos Dwarfs, especially applied to slaves.
Agree. I think the whole 'We're evil so we'll torture you' thing is pretty lame. DEs just about get away with it but it would be nice to see CDs have an actual reason for slaves other than just sacrifices to an evil god. I also don't see them as valuing the notion of art forms very highly unless they are of the sort that yield results or appeal to the Dwarfish mentality (martial ability, clever engineering, powerful sorcery). No modern dance. At all.
A Chaos Dwarf is not, it seems to me, likely to be interested in the more time-consuming elements of leisure that a Dwarf might pursue, such as quality time with the family. Aside from the necessary instruction in the arts of war, craft, trade, and obedience, I rather doubt they spend any time together at all.
I see CD females as very oppressed indeed, perhaps even considered property. It fits with their mentality after all. It seems like a natural perversion of Dwarf society where the women are rare and kept out of sight. This is something I will be exploring with the webzine comic too (eventually).
Especially given the clan basis for loyalties (which can't be readily altered), a lower-level Dawi Zharr would have little choice but to accede to to the wishes of his clan superiors. We again return to pragmatism as the general form of restraint - for smiths without tools, warriors without weapons or training, etc. cannot be expected to produce at full capacity. There might additionally be certain sacrosanct customs - like the inability to take the tools of a tradesman, the weapons and armor of a warrior, or a set portion of the plunder they gather.
Their society is caste-based (as shown in Knight of the Realm) and it would suggest that orders from a superior are absolute. Again, quite Dwarfish.
As far as work in the mines and forges are concerned, even short term survival is chancy considering the environment. For a malnourished weakling, the chances of productivity are zero.
Perhaps the true horror is when you realise you will spend decades rather than months working their mines :) Again, I think careful maintenance of slave workforces is much more appropriate for CDs than the usual GW 'We torture our own workforce for fun' approach.

Great stuff :)

Kera foehunter:

Here is my Views

on the Chaos Dwarfs

The Blood line was cut off, so that would put the clann to playout

the Stroungest of the clann would prevail. Even if the sorseror or high Priest

would run the clanns but there are other parts of the clann that also would have there views

1. the warriors

2 the elders

3.the politic of the socity

4. the women

5. new members ( formal slaves )

even throw there is one leader of the clanns, there are parts of the clann

i see that there would be seval clann of the cd with one leader!

* now on to the women *

With a clann type of group, i do not see women being oppressed or treated as a priece of property to own !!

A woman would be as a equal . a oppress woman would make for a weak clann and she may just end up killing her opressor

As with all warrior group in history they all have the support of there stronge women.Even throw you don’t here from them there !!

woman play a large part of the clann and keep it up and running

where all you here about is great battles and wealth of there men

there greatest asset are the support of there women…

if you can give brith you can cope with anything!!!

to teach the younge how to be a cd and to learn honor is another gift a woman … Women gives there young the support of that they need to grow up in a clann. women have alot to do beside from teaching and rasing childrenand keeping there house hold up !!

once again most of this history of chaos dwarfs where wrote by guys

and just write about the great battles

now on to the slaves

I see the slave as non clan member at first out sider that are use as hired hands

the slave then go threw alot of trainning of odd jobs thow that don’t make it are turn loosed or saredfice… but those who make it is adopted into the clann

throw there clann member they be long to a subclann .

as they become clann member they will be come great because the greatness of there life they live they would fight to the death for there repect and being part of the whole

a beated down slave would only give you troble

and would turn on you

as with the orc rebellion the hobgoblin fought on are side so ther musta of been something to sway them over

these are my views! of the cd seeing them as clann people

Drychnath:

This is near-threadnomancy, but I thought since a) it was still on the front page and thus averted the customary standard of death and b) it was the most obvious thread already on the subject, it was an acceptable place to put it.

I lost all the previous notes I had made on the subject when my old laptop was stolen, so I’m going to deviate from my planned course of a year ago and kick around some less developed ideas.

First, what does everyone think of the idea of having the CD with a strong habit of twisted legalism? Not too exaggerated within the society itself, but by way of brutal enforcement of ruthlessly exacting contracts - following in the theme of a bargain with the devil, only the highest price is failure to meet some un-apparent standard. I imagine things like the contract specifying sundown, the merchants show up a few hours early and are enslaved for their trouble. It doesn’t fully jibe in my head yet, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Secondly, I was considering the points of ritual, the suggestions of madness popular in fan fluff, and another way to simultaneously keep Chaos Dwarfs connected yet distinguished from their western cousins. In fiction concerning the Dwarfs, there are often very specific rituals or customs that at first seem inexplicable, but have in fact a very well established and inevitably quoted origin rich in meaning and tradition. Suppose, that by virtue of cataclysm and corruption by chaos, this vital cultural link was lost? That instead, remnants and corruptions of traditions or corruptions might exist that they do not have an explanation for, and instead become a sort of social stairway to a blank ceiling. To give you an example of what I mean from real life, consider this causal link:

Do you know why the Saturn V rockets are designed the size they are? They would in fact be more efficient with two larger engines than the three that they use. The reason is to fit through the train tunnels between the point manufacture and the launch point. But why are the tunnels the size they are then? Because of the size of a train - they needed just enough space to ensure there wasn’t a vacuum that would cause all the windows to blow out. Why are the trains the size they are? Because of the width of the tracks that carry them. The tracks are that wide because the first persons to construct railways in the United States were English immigrants who had previously worked building carts, and so built them to the same width as carts and wagons in England. The cause of the width of the carts was the ruts in the old Roman settlements in England left by the chariots - they simply built their wagons to ride in the same ruts. Finally, the reason Roman chariots were that width was so that the forward rods would just fit over the rumps of two horses. So it turns out the Saturn V rocket engine is the size it is because of the width of two horse rumps.

I think this is an excellent progression that could apply to Chaos Dwarfs. At each stage a practical decision was made; and then lacking any connection with the previous decisions the next most practical decision was made, and so on and so forth. Applied to social conventions and traditions, ultimately totally inexplicable traditions could arise. I do not suggest that this be a dominant factor, but I think it would be very cool as a sort of subtext for nearly any exotic behavior you’d care to devise.

A related thought occurred to me regarding enmity with the western Dwarfs. Several versions of an attempted and rebuffed reconciliation have been suggested, but I propose rather that the specific cause of hatred be unknown or forgotten. I think it would perhaps be more characterful for the Dawi Zharr to know that they hate western Dawi, feel that they have been wronged, and really do not know why originally. What is more, they do not care. Willing participation in a purposeless vendetta - wouldn’t that be madness?

Nazhur:

Very good thread, both the old and the new. I totally agree with you that our relationship with our cousin, the normal dwarfs would be something similiar.

I also agree with Kera that I see chaos dwarfs women to be very strong and actually have the power in the household, even if not in politics as this are for the sorcerers. Would actually be intersting to have some kind of chaos dwarfs character like Boduccia. I could indeed see a strong female rise up because of hatred, or some thing else.

Grimstonefire:

I think it is unlikely they would forget the reasons they hate them, unless they are completely mad or have more important things to hate and are too busy for hatred specifically against them (because it would serve no purpose).

Dwarfs of all kinds have exceptional memories.

Madness would explain why they would have traditions with no cultural or causal links, but that would be very difficult to explain well to somebody.

I had a similar idea last year I think, to build in so many layers of inexplicable rituals that it would make a picture of apparent madness, but I never really got it started because the concept I had was supposed to involve mystical links to the wider warhammer timeline and I couldn’t be bothered to research it all.

Nazhur:

Sounds like a very intersting idea you got there Grimstonefire. Would be fun to read if you ever got the time.