[Archive] Did my Bull Centaurs Do a Good Job?

Wolf :

Hi All,

I had a game against a Skaven player whom took his Tournament list against my LoA more combat list. Anyway this is the first time I use my Two Taur�?Truk and Three Bull Centaur list which consisted of the following:

1 no. Taur’ruk �?" 230 pts

Great Weapon

Blackshard Armor

Crown of Command

Dragonhelm

1 no. Taur’ruk �?" 235 pts

Great Weapon

Blackshard Armor

Trickster’s Helm

3 no. Bull Centaur Renders �?" 190pts

Ba’hal Bull Centaur

Standard Bearer

Musician

Great Weapons

Standard of Discipline

Total �?" 655 pts

Anyway my opponent get turn one and does what most would do against LoA rushed forward? His Hell-Pit rushes an insane amount as my opponent was rolling out of the box. My first turn I do what the Centaurs are built for combat and I charge the Hell-Pit.

It took them two turns to kill the Hell-Pit, however I took five wounds in the process two on one Taur�?Truk, three on a Bull and one on the other Taur�?Truk with the Trickster�?Ts Helm.

The next turn was mine so I charge the flank of one of his slave bricks and again it took two turns to kill 50 slaves, whiclst been shot by his lighting cannon and gutter runners with poison, however I charged through terrain and lost one of my Bull�?Ts with one wound left.

After this combat I charge is huge brick of 40 Storm Vermin, at this point he put his gutter runners in my rear and another slave brick into my flank. By the end of the game only one Taur�?Truk with the Trickster�?Ts Helm was alive with one wound left.

The rest of my army either killed itself or did nothing, I had a huge brick of 30 infernal guard with Blunderbusses and in turn one he cast plague and killed�?��?��?��?��?��?�. 17, this was unreal this guy was rolling high all game. His second turn Plague again this time another 5 were killed reducing them to 8.

My 6 K�?TDaai Fireborn charge a block of 50 Slaves and slowly died from toughness tests, poison attacks from the slaves, a globe and one or two lighting cannon shots.

The Dreadquake Mortar hit his grey seerer on a bell twice and rolled a one to wound both time, I used the feedback scroll and managed to get two wounds on him, but he had a special item which regains all lost wounds. I shot my Dreadquake twice and then it blow itself up as my Sorcerer-prophet charged is gutter runner who were in combat with my deathshrieker rocket, which still died :sick.

The deathshrieker rocket didn�?Tt shoot all game as his gutter runners�?T set-up 12�?� away and made the charge in turn one. Now I�?Tm thinking of it I don�?Tt believe you can charge in the first turn you scout (dam it) :mad.

Anyway thoughts on how my Bull Centaurs performed? :hat off

tjub:

Compared to the rest of the army they did well by the sound of it… What was the Skaven army list?

Bloodbeard:

Well you seem to have a bad dice day Wolf. Not being able to hurt your enemy with your warmachines and him getting really high roles on the dice.

Regarding the Bull Centaurs. The simple math is this: You lost, got slaughtered. Your BC tank unit gave the enemy 425 victory points and they only scored between 335 (no upgrades) - 431 (all ugrades, shields, spear, slings, cmg grp). So most likely they didn’t earn themselves back. Had they stopped a deadly unit worth more tan their own points in their tracks - allowing you to gain more victory points another place it would have been fine. Unfortunately I don’t think that is the case.

How did you place the miniatures in your unit?

M-C-S
T-T
or
T-M-C-S-T

Just a bad game my friend.

i think it’s a real big problem your opponent doesn’t know the scout rules. The game is designed so no one can get of a charge in turn one - so you cannot charge after using a scout move. This being a tournament list, and gutter runners being used often anyways, he really should know better. Sneaky freakin rats. On the positive side, it has costed you a death shrieker to never forget that rule Wolf.

Wolf :

Thanks Blood Beard & Tjub.

The list he was running from memory was as follows:

Grey Seerer Level 4 wizard with Skirim (Regains Wounds), two Warp Stone Tokens on a Great Bell accompanied with 40 Clan Rats pulling it.

He rolled Plague, Skitter Leap, Warp Lighting, another Poison spell and another I can�?Tt quite remember.

3 Warlock Engineers one with an Orb and some other rockets thing

BSB with the Storm Banner in a unit of 40 Storm Vermin

3 Units of 50 Slaves

1 Hell-Pit Abomination

1 Doomwheel

2 Units of Giant Rats

2 Units of 5 Gutter Runners

1 Warp Lighting Cannon

My list as follows:

1 no. Sorcerer-Prophet
Darkforge Weapon �?" Rolled possessed
Level 4 Wizard - Lore (Hashut)
I rolled terrible for my magic, 1, 2, 4 and 5 changed 1 for Sign Spell.  Only cast one spell all game which was IF.
Feedback Scroll
Charmed Shield �?" Which I rolled a one for lol.

1 no. Dark Castellan
Battle Standard Bearer
Great Weapon

1 no. Taur’ruk
Great Weapon
Blackshard Armor
Crown of Command
Dragonhelm

1 no. Taur’ruk
Great Weapon
Blackshard Armor
Trickster’s Helm

30 no. Infernal Guard
1 no. Deathmask
Musician
Standard Bearer
War Banner
Hand weapon/ Shield
29 no. Hailshot Blunderbuss

6 no. K’Daai Fireborn
1 no. Manburner

3 no. Bull Centaur Renders
Ba’hal Bull Centaur
Standard Bearer
Musician
Great Weapons
Standard of Discipline

1 no. Deathshrieker Rocket

1 no. Dreadquake Mortar
Slave Ogre

My deployment was, weak at best; due to the fact the DS rocket cannot shoot over troops I placed it on top of a small hill with my DQ alongside and the SP in the middle on the left hand side of the table.

I was concerned with the Gutter Runners been in my rear so I spread out my units out along the entire board so from left to right as follows:

DS, SP, DQ, IG, KF, BC inc TR.

I believe as I�?Tm moving from the easy starter army list of castling with strong magic to a more challenging list been a hammer and anvil approach my skills as a General and knowlegde of the rule and placement will need to be vastly improved.

Honeym123:

To be hounest I think it’s a succes every time you kill an A-bomb…
Another thing is… Against skaven - I know its kind of boring - but you really need to have som magma cannons and DS. Thoose large blocks need to be trimed down, so you dwarf units can fight them and break them. Also DS can be used to kill thoose monsters. I hounestly think, that if the rest of your army had preformed, the bull centaurs them self woulden’t have been in so much trouble, and being able to take out the HP in turn two, the rest of the army could have excelled, if it wasent for bad luck (or something else).

Also, you need something else backing up the fireborn and BC… skaven is well known for their numbers. Use som goblins for support units… Spending all thoose points on Blunderbuss while expecting your BC to survive in the midst of the ranks of skaven is poor planing.

Wolf :

@Honeym123: you are correct with your comment with regards to killing the A-Bomb, I understand the Infernal guard choice was not ideal but wanted to test out the Blunderbusses.

My next game is against VC with lots of zombies, terrorgiest and a meat shredding Vamp etc, revised list as follows:

Sorcerer-Prophet

Darkforge Weapon

Level 4 Wizard - Lore (Hashut)

Sivejir’s Hex Scroll

Charmed Shield

Dark Castellan

Battle Standard Bearer

Great Weapon

Taur’ruk

Great Weapon

Blackshard Armor

Crown of Command

Dragonhelm

Taur’ruk

Great Weapon

Blackshard Armor

Trickster’s Helm

10 Infernal Guard

Deathmask

Pistol

Musician

Standard Bearer

10 Fire Glaives

20 Hobgoblin Cutthroats

Murderboss

Musician

Standard Bearer

Bows

Shield

Throwing knives

20 Hobgoblin Cutthroats

Murderboss

Musician

Standard Bearer

Bows

Shield

Throwing knives

20 Hobgoblin Cutthroats

Murderboss

Musician

Standard Bearer

Bows

Shield

Throwing knives

6 K’Daai Fireborn

Manburner

3 Bull Centaur Renders

Ba’hal Bull Centaur

Standard Bearer

Musician

Great Weapons

Standard of Discipline

1 Deathshrieker Rocket

1 Dreadquake Mortar

Slave Ogre

Thoughts?

Honeym123:

I have a couple of thoughts… Not grounded in too much experience though. The vampire is though as hell and unless your willing to pump many points into the attempt, very hard to kill. I have a hard time understanding why you choose the dreadquake over the hell cannon. The hell cannon can fight and shoot! I also dont understand why you are not using magma cannons. Theese will burn through almost anything from crypt horrors, vargheists to graveguards and zombies. Two tar’ruks are from my points of view wasted in this combat, as they are too slow to burn through giant units of zombies with nehek behind them. I would proberably use an unbreakeable iron deamon, as it can shoot thoose monsters to the ground, hold up giant units, and grind away at the same time.

Honeym123:

For the win of the game I would throw away almost the entire list and start from anew with units like theese:

magma cannon
Hell cannon
Iron deamon (-s?!)

Max 1 Tarruk
3 bc, only so your tarruk can be with.

Prophet to dispell all of thoose rise spells
1-2 Deamon smiths
Maybe a castellan…

25-30 IF - plain and simple. There is nothing in this army you cant beat with them.
a unit or two of 30 hob goblins with bows.

K’daai destroyer?

I respect you for trying to make the fireborn work. I will attempt it later on, so here I can only say respect - hope you can make them work.
I dont know what you can fit in their for the points, but I would try something like the above.

Kind regards

Wolf :

@Honeym123: I used to run two Magma cannons, Iron Daemon’s and a Hellcannon in most of my earlier games and I have to admit I enjoyed steam rolling my opponent in most games including this Skaven player. But I want to learning how I can utilise every unit at my disposal including the Bull Centaurs.

I played a game against a very experienced player who was running Beastmen and not only tabled me but also won a very competitive tournament with zero comp.

As such, I realised his placement and fore thought of what each unit is capable of was insightful, I asked him how he knew his army so well and also how to play against a magnitude of other armies.

The response was I run under-powered armies on most of my friendly games, so when I run a harder list I know what every unit is fully capable of competing against the other.

So I have endeavoured not to just run a net list and smash most people at the clubs, but to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

My upcoming Tournament list is as follows:

Lord

Sorcerer-Prophet on Bale Tarus

Darkforge Weapon

Level 4 Wizard - Hashut

Charmed Shield

Other Trickers shard

Talisment of Prevention

Hero

Dark Castellan

Battle Standard Bearer

1 Daemonsmith

Level 1 Wizard - Metal

Channelling Staff

Core

33 Infernal Guard

Deathmask

Pistol

Musician

Standard Bearer

32 Fire Glaives

Banner of Eternal Flame

Special

2 Iron Daemon

Hellbound

1 Magma Cannon

Rare

Hellcannon

Bloodbeard:

I have had bery great succes with fireborn especially against undaed. They are hard to kill and will take out a lot if enemies - making them crumble through wounds.

Also bring fire to take away regeneration.

They Magma Cannon is a must againdt VC. It will put down a lot og enemies - and you need that or see too many raised.

Hellcannon over dreadquake. It’s unbreakable, will stand a long time against enemy tar pits. Because some enemy units you just wont bring down.

It has magical attacks. You will need that. A smart VC player brings hex wraiths and a banshee. So magical attacks is a must. Perhaps even go hellbound on some other wsrmachines.

Honeym123:

All right. I hear you loud and clear. But running two Tar’ruks is not learning what they a capable of. And the two units of 2x10 IF are just lining up to die, as they will be overrun. Also our hobgoblins are only slightly better than their zombies, and cost more and cant be raised again, running them in units of 20 is not smart in this situation. I understand you want to learn what they can do, but being taken of the table dosen’t teach you anything, as you will be forced into your moves, not thinking them but forcing them. It will only teach you they do not work. The way you learn what your army can do is running a list not weak, not super strong, and change units out. Lets say you run fireborn for sometime… Now you learn how to place them, what they can beat and so on… Take them out and use Bull centaurs… Now you know that. Now you only use a small unit of IF and use a lot of Hobgoblins, then you only use IF… and so on…

Wolf :

@Honeym123: I think you may have tought me a valuable lesson.

I will think on what you have said and re-do my list to suit a more balance approach rather than gettign my face stomped.

Thanks!!!

sam585:

Bullcentaurs are really only good for two things, fleeing charges from RnF and killing chariots/monsters/small units of knights.

Run only 3 bullcentaurs, run them with greatweapons and a banner of flame for those pesky regen things, and the best thing to do is not imagine them as bullcentaurs, but a small unit of knights. With this idea of pretending they are knights you realize that they are actually really weak to a lot of things but will perform extremely well against monsters of generally all flavors and other knights (so long as its not a character bus do not charge bullcentaurs into characters).

Next the Tauruk give him a 1+ rerollable armor save, a greatweapon, dragonhelm, and Other tricksters shard let him operate on his own, and use him to kill demonprinces, monsters, and assasinate heroes/lords this is where the Tauruk shines and is a unique tool in that we dont have any other characters suited to do combat.

Malorndk:

But knights don’t have T5 and strenght 6. Last game my 4 bulls+Tauruk killed a monster and 15 nurgle warriors over many rounds of combat, even when flanked charged, due to Crown of command and gleaming pennant. Once a knight unit has charged it’s just an unkilling brick on the board. The bulls at least kills something over time

sam585:

In my meta, I usually have to fight against a combat hero/lord that is usually floating inside of a unit of chaos warriors/bulls/ironguts and in these situations Bullcentaurs do not perform well because when faced with str6/7 combat hero the greatness of toughness 5 soon becomes an irrelevant point.

Putting your bullcentaurs into the teeth of any ranked core unit with access to str5+ is a risky situation period, and more then likely a situation where the bullcentaurs will be slain to a model. I to have had success with running centaurs in units with a stubborn hero as well, but after many many games with multiple opponents you see just how big of an impact having only 2atks base str 4 with a WS 4 really is. Yes they will get lucky sometimes, yes your opponent will roll like poop sometimes. But in the grind against str 5+ troops backed up by str 6-7 combat heroes bullcentaurs do not hold up to the point where my opponents would say, “Why do you even bother bringing those?”

The only situations where you can really be guaranteed that your Centaurs to come out on top (in a straight fight without a flank/rear charge) is against monsters, chariots, and knights.

Honeym123:

No worries, glad I could be at service.

I agree with the two others. The BC don’t have much uses. However they are a drop that can take care of charriots and that can not be neglected.

Honeym123:

HOWEVER, a list i will difently try out is a combat list: 3 iron deamons, BC, 2 Tarruks, k’daai destroyer wolf riders hobgoblins, IG and fireborn - maybe a lord on bull for support magic? That sounds like a fun list to play!