[Archive] Do Chaos Dwarfs Get a Bad Wrap?

Wolf :

Hi All,

I�?Tve recently moved to a new area and have been slowing getting in to the local gaming scene.

There is a Magic centric Tournament coming up in the next few weeks and I was enquiring on any restrictions to the Tournament. The response I got is as follows:

Bloodbeard:

Yep. Find a way to break the following to the organizers, without sounding like a bitter douchebag.

1. The ETC allows chaos dwarfs, and that’s the most competitive environment there is.

2. At the large warhammer tournament at warhammer world (as official as it gets), Games Workshop posted the following as a “warriors code” to set rules regarding army selection.



We can only get more official is Forge World is integrated completely with Games Workshop.

We do have a strong list, no doubt. But there are many counter measures to the K’daii Destroyer - which seem to be peoples biggest problem. Lore of Shadows can take away his toughness and he goes poof or much of the 2++ against fire.

Our lord cost 265 without anything! Only short of a demon prince. That excludes lords from many battles. Our big cool demonic train is great, but the Empire steam does the same things, but cheaper and better.

I really think it’s just bad style to exclude the list. You can make bad “i just want to win” lists with many of the armies out there.

TheHoodedMan:

In Germany this seems not to be a big problem. Nearly all tournaments are played according to additional restriction systems, mostly after “Combat 8.0”, which is a tried and tested rules set which denies certain combinations on the table at 2500 points per army.
Chaos Dwarves are included in that set so most organisators allow them.

By the way: Didnt hear that chaos dwarves won all the tournaments they are in ;-), to be honest: I didnt hear of one tournament they won.
Thats more true for high and especially dark elves at the moment.

cornixt:

Sounds like the number one concern is that CDs are uncommon enough that most people simply don’t know enough about them for it to be a fair battle. All you can do about that is to take part and be very open, showing the organizers that it won’t be a problem in the future.

torn:

Really the playstyle is similar to regular dwarfs, you get magic and the monsters but at the expense of diversity in the army. I think if you are playing monsters chaos dwarfs are a weaker version of chaos, the bull centaurs and k’dai just arent amatch for some chaos options. If we go war machines we arent a lot different to regular dwarfs.

I think it is more a case of fearing the unknown, and an idea that maybe chaos dwarfs might be overpowered so forgeworld can sell models. I actually think we are probably a mid tier army, and rely on lucky warmachines and magic to win the day, which isnt a reliable strategy and can be problematic at times. Infernal guard are solid core infantry but nothing special, and pretty expensive compared to a similar chaos warrior.

Wolf :

I have responded to the TO, with the following:

�?oThanks for your swift response much appreciated, I will be populating my army list for submission prior to 6pm on XXXXX 2014.

I really like your statement �?oif it is legal, you may use it�?� very refreshing, however I only collect Chaos Dwarfs for WHFB and you�?Tre statement �?oshould we run more of a competitive event, we’d rather not have them�?� is very disappointing.



I will personally be promoting the Chaos Dwarfs at the Tournament and I�?Tm hoping once it has finished you�?Tll have changed your opinion.�?�

@ Cornix: I completely agree that this is a classic fear of the unknown, I�?Tve been speaking to a few local gamers and they advised me the real concern by the TO was the K�?TDaai Destroyer, However once he realised I don�?Tt run a Destroyer he was fine with my participation in the more competitive tournaments.

The comment for the reason of the K�?TDaai Destroyer is they didn�?Tt want to have too many people complaining.

@ Torn: I agree CD are a mid-tier army, I would consider WoC and Deamons to be far more versatile and have better unit for cheaper.

Geist:

As a TO I think that your TO replying that he would “rather not see them, in a more competitive setting” is a total bullshit thing for him to say. Chaos Dwarfs first off are 100% legal by GW as they have a great big stamp of yes they are allowed in the book. Secondly the Masters (a series here in the states where ETC reps are chosen from) allows them. So anyone trying the bullshit of oh they are unknown or too hard or any other excuse is spouting bullshit. While the book can be deadly to SOME armies, it is very weak to cav. A cav or monster heavy list can give a CD list fits. Not to mention the gross points imbalance issues inside the book itself.

I just hate to see close minded thinking in any tourney. When I became a TO I made it a mission to always listen to feed back and never to just shut down and be oh that cant happen for no actual reason. Even if I dislike something I need a solid reason and not just prom queen stereo typing to say oh that wont be allowed.

Wolf :

As a TO I think that your TO replying that he would "rather not see them, in a more competitive setting" is a total bullshit thing for him to say.  Chaos Dwarfs first off are 100% legal by GW as they have a great big stamp of yes they are allowed in the book.  Secondly the Masters (a series here in the states where ETC reps are chosen from) allows them.  So anyone trying the bullshit of oh they are unknown or too hard or any other excuse is spouting bullshit.  While the book can be deadly to SOME armies, it is very weak to cav.  A cav or monster heavy list can give a CD list fits.  Not to mention the gross points imbalance issues inside the book itself.

I just hate to see close minded thinking in any tourney.  When I became a TO I made it a mission to always listen to feed back and never to just shut down and be oh that cant happen for no actual reason.  Even if I dislike something I need a solid reason and not just prom queen stereo typing to say oh that wont be allowed.

Geist
@ Geist: I completely agree with everything you've just said. :hat off

Also, if when I�?Tm a TO in the near future, I would gladly welcome any new addition which would shake up the Meta. However I would also utilise the Swedish Comp System to be honest.

:D

Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:

Worst thing is if you win or place they will be “overpowered”… i hate the bad rep but it is definitely there. Just tell them CD were here before they started playing warhammer and they will be here well after they rage quit :wink: But in all seriousness if you explain EVERYTHING to your opponent it will be fairer.

Wolf :

@ vantraxx the thrice cursed: I’m populating a series of cheat sheets to hand over at the tournament.

Novos:

Everything Geist said is 100% accurate. There is no question about it, Chaos Dwarves ARE 100% legal. Not only are they allowed in ALL GW events, but they’re also allowed in ALL major world tournaments. Banning them or over comping them would be on par with banning or over comping orcs & goblins. And any tourney organizer that would even think about it is an idiot. Truth to be told I haven’t seen many CD tournament winners, so that in itself is proof that they aren’t cheesey. And even if they were cheese, nothing is as lactose saturated than chariots of chaos/throgg of chaos. WoC is by far the cheesiest army in the game and has been for about 3 editions, but nobody says shit about them.

CD are legit, any tourney that disallows them are not.

Good luck!
- Robby

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Chaos Dwarfs may be legal but I’ve had veteran players admit they just don’t like playing against them. I think it is a reputation-hangover from when everyone thought they were over powered when they were first released but despite my best efforts, little has changed (in my area at least). So I’ve shelved them for now and am hoping they get some love in the future. It’s sad because they are a ridiculously fun army to field and even their story line is fun. But I am a casual player and see no need to inflict myself upon other players so for now, my opponents get to face to Dark Elves or Warriors of Chaos. Sucks to be them!

Wolf :

Hey All,

A little update on if Chaos Dwarf�?Ts get a bad reputation, I had a friendly game against a player over the weekend and I have to say he brought a reasonably hard 2,400 pts Nurgle list as follows:

1 Epidemous on Daemonic Steed
1 Wizard Level 1 �?" Mark of Nurgle
1 Khorne Herald on Jugganaught
20 Plague Bearers full command
20 Plague Bearers full command
4 Nurgle Beasts
4 Nurgle Beats
3 Khorne Bloodcrushers
5 Plague Furies
5 Plague Furies
1 Skullcannon
1 Skullcannon

My list was more conservative, but still fun as follows:

1 Sorcerer-Prophet
Level 4 Wizard - Lore (Hashut), Sivejir’s Hex Scroll, Charmed Shield
1 Dark Castellan
Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon
1 Daemonsmith
Level 2 Wizard - Lore (Fire)
1 Daemonsmith
Level 1 Wizard - Lore (Metal)
1 Taur’ruk
Great Weapon, Blackshard Armor, Crown of Command, Dragonhelm
25 Infernal Guard with Fire Glaives �?" Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
20 Hobgoblin Cutthroats �?" Full Command
3 Bull Centaur Renders �?" Full Command
Great Weapons, Standard of Discipline
1 Magma Cannon
1 Deathshrieker Rocket
1 Dreadquake Mortar
1 Hellcannon

The game was tough he got first turn and was straight in my face as the board width would only take max three turns to make into combat.

Anyway, this is why I�?Tve put this battle within this thread.  Later in the Game in the Magic phase he cast a spell whilst in combat, which I stated I�?Tll use Sivejir’s Hex Scroll.  After the spell effects were decided I told him to roll a dice to see what happens with the Hex, which he rolls a three.  

This is where the conversation annoyed me, due to the stigma attached to the Chaos Dwarfs and plus coming from a Daemons of Chaos player running Nurgle.  I informed him his wizard is now a Frog and all of his characteristics except wounds are reduced to one.

He said Chaos Dwarfs have some crazy stuff and asked to see my rulebook.  So with the best poker face I could muster responded stating you have the rulebook in your hand take a look�?��?��?��?��?��?��?��?��?�

HE was amazed to see this item was within the Rulebook and not a broken Chaos Dwarf magic item�?�. Anyway, in combat I directed as many attacks as possible at his wizard (Now Frog) and killed him.  However he stated that Ward Saves still count as it an innate ability rather than a magic item.
In summary I was a little annoyed as my list was not a hard list and that fact he felt I was running a OP army.  

As a side note the Game was epic (I lost) and I fully enjoyed it, in the end I had my Tar�?Truak and he had 2 Nurgle Beasts, 2 Skullcrushers.

The Man of the match had to be the Tar�?Truak which I was running solo, he shot his skullcannon at him on three occasions as everything else was in combat and didn�?Tt wound him once.  This was mainly due to the fact he had the Dragonhelm so a 2+ ward really helps against flaming cannon shot.

tenebre:

I agree is the unknown rather than anything else. Also i have seen, mor than once, people playing a photocopied netlist of CD, which really is super broken since everything is cheaper and better. haha

In our games the CDs are pretty average. we play games at 4k standard and I lose to Empire and Lizardmen frequently. I did beat high elves, TK and Vampire counts on a regular basis though.

I just dont see their brokenness at all unless you specifically take 3 magma cannons and 2 destroyers at 2400 points (which is just boring to play IMO)

MadHatter:

I agree is the unknown rather than anything else. Also i have seen, mor than once, people playing a photocopied netlist of CD, which really is super broken since everything is cheaper and better. haha

In our games the CDs are pretty average. we play games at 4k standard and I lose to Empire and Lizardmen frequently. I did beat high elves, TK and Vampire counts on a regular basis though.

I just dont see their brokenness at all unless you specifically take 3 magma cannons and 2 destroyers at 2400 points (which is just boring to play IMO)

tenebre
I'm at 14-0-11 and it's not due to broken lists but my game getting better, the Infernal Guard rarely does anything. The shooting-phase is won when we get turn 1 because magmacannon is ace, with spec. we can dominate the magic-phase with chalice aswell. The Destroyer is to easily countered imho.

Baggronor:

In the UK, they’ve been allowed pretty much everywhere since day of release. They do have the FW stigma attached, and tbh the list deserves it, just not in the way most ppl think. Most say its broken, but the truth is its just really really badly written. At best its mid-tier. It does have some powerful units, but most have readily available counters once you think about their rules. I’ve never seen them win a tournament, and they rarely make top ten. In short, they get a bad wrap and yes, the list is bad, but broken? Not overall.

should we run more of a competitive event, we’d rather not have them
A strange attitude considering good players have relatively little to fear from them compared to the power armies out there :wink: And its not like the other lists are all expertly written either - the Slaughterbrute and the Daemon Prince rules both read like they could have come from FW.

Bitterman:

Has ever someone said that to Alan Bligh? I mean has anybody here met him at a Games Day and talked to him? What's his opinion to such statements?

Herby
Judging by the impression he left on me the last couple of times I met him, I'd guess his opinion on any criticism of his work would be "no, they're wrong, everything I write is perfect".

("I'm the only person in the world who could have written the Horus Heresy books" <-- actual quote I heard in conversation with Alan Bligh).

I really like the LoA list thematically, but some of it is horribly written, and the internal balance is all over the place. K'daai Destroyer? Ridiculously good. Skullcracker? Ridiculously bad. Tamurkhan overall is a superb book (minus some shoddy proofreading errors) and the CD stuff is really evocative, but as army lists go, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Wolf :

Well it’s official Perth is the worst place on earth to play Chaos Dwarfs… In Perth they hold a Ultimates Tournament which leads to a wider Ultimates Tournament in Australia.

Anyway i enquired if Chaos Dwarfs are allowed and the response was no, this is the same tournament which is allowing the new Nagash book but not Chaos Dwarfs.

I have been given no reason just, Warhammer Forge rules are not allowed.

Link to forum if anyone is interested.

http://www.westgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28586&p=421279#p421279

Wolf :

Hey up all,

An update from me presenting the Chaos Dwarf case.

Response states "The decision for this year’s event is final and I won’t be debating it. Sorry if that isn’t to your liking - there are other events on the WA calendar that cater for people who wish to use Warhammer Forge."

Ouch not aggressive much.

Wolf :

OK, I’m tired of Chaos Dwarfs been banned and shunned because people don’t like change.

Well in Perth Western Australia it is near on impossible to enter a Tournament with Chaos Dwarfs, as detailed in my last post.

So on my local forum, the topic of the End Times Books has started to be debated, which is healthy and keep people excited about Warhammer, however a TO has made a comment which frustrates me so I’ve stop been overly polite and stated the facts.

So this is what the TO stated

"Exactly. People need to learn, “tournament legal” comes down to:
- The individual tournament
- The whims of the TO

Both of which may, or may not, be influenced by public opinion.

GW could write the words “this is tournament legal” into one of their books, and it still wouldn’t necessarily matter.'

Now my response

"You make a good case in point, it is definitely down to the whim of a TO.

Take the Legion of Azgorh, very similar to the end of time books however written by FW instead of GW.

GW have basically stated they are tournament legal by listing them as a tournament army for all GW events.

Yet this does not stop TO’s excluding them from Tournaments.

It’s very similar to when FOX terminated Futurama, cause its similar to Simpsons made by the same people but we don’t like change.

GW try to move fantasy forward, and some people hold it back by closing the door to new players and not allowing any changes to the meta to keep the game fresh, challenging and most of all interesting.

So what happens when new players want to enter the tournament scene, but they can’t use these awesome new models they bought, because the old school crowd boo and hiss.

The new players are going to feel frustration and may result in dwindling numbers playing in these tournaments.

Then the tournaments end up been just the same people year after year… Seems to be a real shame, but hey these TO’s are proberly members of the flat earth society anyway."

So everyone any Thoughts on what I said?