[Archive] Dreadquake Mortar with Slave Ogre

burock:

The DMortar is a WM with 3 wounds. When you add a slave ogre to that,

Q1. will it be 6 wounds (since the ogre is 3W)?

Moreover,

Q2. how will the wounds be allocated on the WM, be it shooting-like or CC? first 3 wounds on normal crew, then 4th to 6th wounds to the ogre maybe?

to complicate things more, assume that the WM is in CC and both the crew dwarfs and the ogre is alive:

Q3. does the charging player have to allocate the attacks between the dwarfs and the ogre?

Q4. do excess wounds carry between the crew and the ogre?

Q5. vs what weapon skill the enemy will strike (3 for the ogre, 4 for the crew)?

also checked how it’s done for O&G army, when their WMs are overseen by a bully for some insight; but couldnt find anything either.

thanks in advance.

burock:

The DMortar is a WM with 3 wounds. When you add a slave ogre to that,

Q1. will it be 6 wounds (since the ogre is 3W)?

Moreover,

Q2. how will the wounds be allocated on the WM, be it shooting-like or CC? first 3 wounds on normal crew, then 4th to 6th wounds to the ogre maybe?

to complicate things more, assume that the WM is in CC and both the crew dwarfs and the ogre is alive:

Q3. does the charging player have to allocate the attacks between the dwarfs and the ogre?

Q4. do excess wounds carry between the crew and the ogre?

Q5. vs what weapon skill the enemy will strike (3 for the ogre, 4 for the crew)?

also checked how it’s done for O&G army, when their WMs are overseen by a bully for some insight; but couldnt find anything either.

thanks in advance.

MLP:

Q1. I’ve always thought it was 6 wounds but I don’t think there is anything in the big red book that supports multi wound models on war machines. I think it just sais +1 wound per additional crew member.

Q2. Pretty sure nothing is said about this either. Possibly randomised.

Q3-5. I think for warmachines in combat you use the highest stat available for all attacks. It’s sort of counted as one model. So you would use the crew WS, Ogre T and wounds would carry over.

I don’t have the Rulebook available but I don’t think it will cover this. It could be worth sending GW support an email unless anyone can find these rules in the BRB.

Thommy H:

There aren’t any rules to cover this - I know because I wrote the option for an Ogre crew member into my Mortal Engine rules and had to write a special rule to explain how it worked. The Dreadquake doesn’t have anything like this - FW seem to have missed how war machines actually work in 8th Edition.

CopperPot:

Thommy H:

Have a look at my “Iron Daemon remixed” thread in the Rules Development forum - that’s the rules 99% as written, but reworded to fit in better with 8th Edition.

The Dreadquake I can’t help with though. I’d play it this way, I think: adding the Slave Ogre bumps the unit up to 6 Wounds. When you lose 3 Wounds, you remove the Ogre and lose the benefit he grants. While he’s there, he fights in combat as normal, but all enemy Attacks are resolved against the best characteristic value available, as per the war machine rules. You get the Chaos Dwarfs’ armour save no matter what.

deadlydeceiver:

Well, I don’t have the Tamurkhan book with me ATM, but I’m 99% sure, that it says in the Army List, that the Ogre adds 3 wounds… right next to the pont cost

As for the other questions: I posted something similar a good while ago… http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10563

DD

khedyarl:

The Dreadquake ogre specifically states in the armylist entry that it adds three wounds, rather than one as would normally be the case.

As for wounding the ogre, given that you must remove whole models in every other case of shooting (I know, I know, the models are just wound counters in this case, but its the only similar case we can draw upon unless it gets clarified), I assume that the Ogre, weirdly enough, would be removed last.

MLP answered the in-combat rules.

Thommy H:

Yes, it definitely adds 3 Wounds. However, a war machine’s Wounds value is always equal to its remaining number of crew. So…yeah.

khedyarl:

The “number of crew” is meaningless, though. They have no impact on the game, aside from being a wound counter/attack counter. In this case, you have essentially one counter that has three wounds. I suppose if somebody really wanted to go big, you could magnetise the arms on the ogre so that first wound blew the right off, then the left, then remove the model. Heh.

Thommy H:

Ah, but the number of Attacks the crew have is not necessarily linked to their Wounds. In combat, it’s explicitly the crew that attack, not the machine itself (which has Attacks ‘-’). So, in the case of a 3-Wound, 3-Attack crew member, it’s actually quite vital to know at what point he gets removed because you lose all his Attacks at once. Plus some of the crew have a save and some don’t and a war machine uses its crew’s armour save value at all times - so what happens when only half of them are wearing armour? If you remove all the Chaos Dwarfs first and end up with just an Ogre, does the Dreadquake lose its save? Do you get to choose in what order you remove them? Can you drop the Ogre to 1 Wound and then start removing Chaos Dwarfs to maximise you Attacks in combat? Do you lose the benefit of including the Ogre when he’s removed or is it just a flat upgrade?

The problem is that the 8th Edition war machine rules assume that the crew has identical profiles and equipment, and explicitly forbids situations where you could force it to be otherwise - characters can’t join war machine crews, for example. The mechanics are built around the crew not really mattering that much. I’m not saying the Dreadquake is a bad idea - it’s a cool visual and a nice idea - it could just do with some sort of rule explaining how it’s actually supposed to work.

Satan:

Wouldn’t it be easier to just treat the crew as separate instances in this case? Forcing attacks to be assigned at the ogre or the CDs?

Thommy H:

It would. But there’s no rule to tell you to do that.

khedyarl:

What is the rule for Orc slavers joining a goblin crew? I don’t know where my 8th ed Orc book is right now, so I can’t check.

Satan:

Somebody drop FW a mail or call about it and ask them when they think the BCs will e available?

MLP:

What is the rule for Orc slavers joining a goblin crew?  I don't know where my 8th ed Orc book is right now, so I can't check.

khedyarl
Even if there is a rule in the O&G book technically it wouldn't be apropriate to Tamurkhan, although it probably would be a good basis to go by. If it's not in the Warhammer Rulebook it'll need to be put in the next FAQ.

At least the +3 wounds is clear in the book.

burock:

glad to hear so many comments. :slight_smile:

the closest thing which can be helpful for the matter at hand is the anvil of doom faq of dwarfs. maybe you should check it. but ofc, as MLP said, that is a rule of a different army and a rule of a pretty unique unit in its own right, so it won’t be applicable here if you are after RAW.

Far2Casual:

Even if there is a rule in the O&G book technically it wouldn't be apropriate to Tamurkhan, although it probably would be a good basis to go by. If it's not in the Warhammer Rulebook it'll need to be put in the next FAQ.

At least the +3 wounds is clear in the book.

MLP
I would, actually. As the question around wounds is solved (the Ogre adds 3 Wounds to the machine indeed), the Orc dude that joins a goblin warmachine has almost the same impact : different profiles for combat, tests or special rules, how to handle wound repartition, etc.

We should probably look at how O&G players handle that situation, because it's about the same in this situation.

MLP:

Even if there is a rule in the O&G book technically it wouldn't be apropriate to Tamurkhan, although it probably would be a good basis to go by. If it's not in the Warhammer Rulebook it'll need to be put in the next FAQ.

At least the +3 wounds is clear in the book.

MLP
I would, actually. As the question around wounds is solved (the Ogre adds 3 Wounds to the machine indeed), the Orc dude that joins a goblin warmachine has almost the same impact : different profiles for combat, tests or special rules, how to handle wound repartition, etc.

We should probably look at how O&G players handle that situation, because it's about the same in this situation.


Far2Casual
Well I said they wouldn't be technically correct, which is right.

Each army uses the Warhammer Rulebook and it's own Armies Book. Technically you can't just take rules from another book unless it states so in your own Army Book(like the Hellcannon) no matter how relevant that rule may be.

However, I did say it would be a good basis to go by. Meaning that in your gaming group you can look at how O&G player handle it for a temporary measure.

zhatan87:

We should probably look at how O&G players handle that situation, because it's about the same in this situation.
It's specifically written in the OG AB : the orc is the last removed...

We should go to the anvil of doom FAQ...