Thommy H:
So I don’t know whether we had a general thread about this - I looked back a few pages and couldn’t find anything that seemed appropriate to bump, so I thought I’d start a new topic to share my thoughts.
I finished reading Archaon today. It was kind of a slog to get to that point, but I ended up reading the back half of this one pretty quickly. Looking back over the series, Nagash felt like it was a major event and then it was diminishing returns until the last volume. I actually thought Glottkin was decent, but Khaine was pretty confusing with all the switching sides and the cardboard elf lords dying and being resurrected or showing up unexpectedly or whatever. I had to keep looking up who was who. Thanquol was just a lot of skaven running around doing boring skaven stuff. We get it: they’re duplicitous and cowardly. No one cares. Archaon focussed things again and, as with Nagash, there was a genuine sense of things falling apart and apocalyptic forces being unleashed (obviously).
Still, it was kind of an odd little experiment to do this. Mainstream Warhammer publications (as opposed to Black Library novels) have never really attempted long-form storytelling like this before, and it’s easy to see why: if you’re going to do it, don’t write it all third-person omniscient style. I found it really odd, because while that perspective works fine for the army books and such - which you can dip in and out of and really just read one or two pages at a time - when you have to slog through hundreds of pages of what is basically exposition…yeah. Don’t write like that. That’s not how writing works. The sidebars that actually included proper dialogue were a refreshing change now and then, although the writing was pretty sub par to be brutally honest. I saw a lot of awkward synonyms for ‘said’ which is a classic mistake made by inexperienced writers and really, there isn’t a character in the setting who can actually sustain any kind of genuine narrative.
The problem with Warhammer is always going to be that it’s a place where battles have to happen - a lot. It’s a game about lining up armies and having them beat the snot out of each other, so the story has to support that. The whole End Times arc is basically a long, long, looooong list of military engagements broken up by people walking to those military engagements. It’s hard to invest in a narrative that consists of umpteen variations of “important guy hits other important guy with his sword until he dies”. But as I say, what else are you going to put into it? It’s not like Karl Franz has any personality outside of his job, and as much as I wanted them to include more women, the results when they did weren’t exactly pretty.
But, with all that said…I do have some weird feelings about the ending. You know, I realised I’ve spent basically half my life involved with this setting in some way. It’s a significant part of my adolescence, as much as Middle Earth, Westeros, Randland, The Realm of the Elderlings or any of the other fantasy worlds I have at various times immersed myself in are. And they blew it up. Even though I knew that’s what would happen (because I caught spoilers), I was genuinely invested in the Incarnates clawing back something from the abyss at the end. There was also something surprisingly poignant about the double-page images that ended it, with Tyrion and Alarielle standing holding hands as reality rips itself apart and then the scenes of catastrophe ending with the planet being totally consumed. It was like, "oh…they really did destroy everything then…"
I don’t know where Warhammer goes now. I thought the plan would be to just have this as a sort of optional sub-setting, and argued somewhat stridently in support of that notion. But 9th Edition (or is it just a skirmish version? No one knows…) seems to be a genuine reboot. There are enough seeds in the story to make it possible to still stick to the old background - I think there’s going to be three options: End Times Warhammer as Chaos takes over, new world founded by the mote of Sigmar that escaped the destruction on the final page, and the Haven Ladrielle created that she thinks Chaos got to and destroyed.
My feeling is that the Haven is where “8th Edition” will continue to exist - it was supposed to be a copy of the existing Warhammer world, minus the taint of Chaos, but I think now its tendrils have taken hold, so it’s basically the same story with the same sorts of armies. The new world is the one where the skirmish game will take place, which uses the old concepts to do totally new armies and stuff. The disintegrating Warhammer world - a process which may have taken centuries or minutes, apparently - is where you can continue to use your End Times forces. This, I guess, is “bubblehammer”? Not sure…
Anyway, just wanted to get all that off my chest. Please go about your business as before.
Skink:
You are obviously an extremely Talented writer, and I found really interesting your analysis of the book. Me, as a non native speaker, haven’t noticed things like the third-person perspective or the “said booksims” that you pointed out. I’m definitely trying to avoid these mistakes myself in order to improve my English, so thank you :cheers
Regarding Warhammer, I completely share your feelings. The Warhammer world has bee part of my life since when I was 14. Seeing it going is a major blow, and quite frankly at the moment I feel like dropping the hobby altogether. Still, we don’t know what GW is concocting. We might end up with a world and a game worthy (if not superior) of its predecessor. Difficult to put off? Undoubtedly. Impossible? Not at all. We’ll just have to wait and see I guess.
Helblindi:
It's hard to invest in a narrative that consists of umpteen variations of "important guy hits other important guy with his sword until he dies".
I agree with most of what you wrote, but any fight scene can basically be summarised like the above sentence, yet in many books, fight scenes can be very gripping. It's just important that the characters are well fleshed out. If GW could just step back a little from showing how hard each and every character is, and maybe show more of why they fight, the fear of death and the adrenaline that must be present in many of the fights, then it would be interesting.
I only ever read Tamurkhan, but I recognise a lot of what you wrote. People refer to Tamurkhan as one of the best written GW books, but I was thoroughly unimpressed with the writing.
Roark:
The best written “GW” books are all by a guy called Dan Abnett. 
Doombeard:
I think in years to come, this ET malarkey will be seen as one of GW’s biggest mistakes, similar to the redesign of the Space Marine/Epic game system which signalled the end and doomed the game forever. I’m just going to bury my head in the sand and pretend it never happened. I bought into it at first and ordered books 1 & 2, but they soon left my shelves and never even came out of shrinkwrap. I see WHFB 8th Ed as the last ed. R.I.P.
Baggronor:
I liked the notion of the End Times actually happening - they’d basically spent the last 15 years talking about it after all. Its a very bold, very ‘Warhammer’ thing to do, I’m just not sure how it marries up with business decisions and a new edition. BubbleHammer and multiple worlds is something that would take a surprising amount of getting used to - I too feel the Warhammer fluff is just justification for having loads of battles, but actually its 30 years worth of input from a lot of minds and pens, some of which is truly great and I really am actually a bit upset that everyone’s dead and everything is gone.
As far as the books go, I’m still grinding through them, mainly because as you say, its hard work getting invested in characters who are mainly third person cardboard. That said, the little Easter Eggs to the old novels and lore was really cool - like including Drachenfels, Genevieve, Filthy Harald, etc. I think that was where it got some personality.
Vlad von Carstein basically being a cross between Batman, Ace Rimmer and Spike from Buffy did a lot of the good work. He got precisely the right death too. It got a bit bland when he wasn’t on-screen.
The only thing that really, really disappointed me was how much the Dwarfs got shafted. The last stand was very Dwarfy but the White Dwarf should have been at the final battle. That, and they finally killed off that douchebag Tyrion only to bring the pointless gimp back again for the end.
Oh, and having Grimgor destroy Zharr Naggrund and Nippon? He just single-handedly wiped out both my armies, the two dimensional bar steward.
tjub:
Haven’t read End Times, but enjoyed a few battle in the setting. As with most people here the end of the world in the last book killed my WFB enthusiasm. Been taking a dive into 15mm sci fi lately and loving it. But hopefully the release of the new edition will get the WFB mojo back, as of now WFB is on ice. Deep frozen.
Fuggit Khan:
Me, as a non native speaker,
Skink
:o
Really? I had always assumed you
were a native English speaker, just an oversea's expat...your English is pretty much perfect.
In fact Skink, your English is better than half the people I work with.
Seriously!
MadHatter:
I read Nagash and Glottkin, after 58 pages of Khaine I had had enough and did something else instead. Read the last chapter of Archaon aswell.
Became a big fan of both Vlad von Carstein and Balthazar Gelt though they where outweighted by my allergy for elf bullshit. Grimgor wrecking Zharr-Naggrund? Well MY Zharr-Naggrund isn’t defended with crossbows and holding up the black gate is an equivilant feat to lifting the world edge mountains. Couldn’t we just after years of being thread on be allowed to get the Endtimes with the Bull Statue erect!!
I’m a big fan of the apocalypse though, to bad the pointy ears had to ruin my view of it by holding hands.
MadHatter:
För helvete.
This message was automatically appended because it was too short.
Malorndk:
I LOVED Khaine xD
But then again, i play DE as well. That might mean a lot!
snowblizz:
För helvete.
MadHatter
Haha, upset? :P
tjub
Heeeey.... if I'm not allowed to curse then he's not either!
snowblizz:
The problem with Warhammer is always going to be that it's a place where battles have to happen - a lot. It's a game about lining up armies and having them beat the snot out of each other, so the story has to support that.
Thommy H
This is basically what I've said elsewhere I think? Warhammer is not a story, it is a setting for us to tell our own stories in. Trying to treat Warhammer as a story leads to all kinds of crazy, comic book style.
Thommy H:
Absolutely, and I’ve always been the first to argue that GW would never “advance the timeline” for that very reason. But then they did, so what do I know, eh?
And all that ties into the underdeveloped characters too: Karl Franz is basically just the Emperor and that’s his only identity. He’s the toughest, noblest, most heroic Emperor ever, and that’s it, because his only purpose (up till now) was to be the top guy in his army.
It’s telling, I think, that a few people in this thread have named Vlad and Gelt as their favourites in the End Times - these are two of the only characters with more complex motivations than wanting to win their battles. Gelt’s turn to the dark side was manufactured entirely for the End Times but it elevated him beyond “best wizard in the Empire”. Vlad always had the Isabella thing (which has never been written very well, least of all when she returned, but it’s at least something) and the End Times emphasised his somewhat warped nobility and perverse loyalty to the nation he spent centuries trying to conquer. Attempts to add shades of grey to the likes of Tyrion and Malekith were…not as successful.
snowblizz:
Absolutely, and I've always been the first to argue that GW would never "advance the timeline" for that very reason. But then they did, so what do I know, eh?
Thommy H
I'd say it's probably not a coincidence that all the old hands are basically gone and fanbois and fanfic writers are in charge of it. Desperately wanting to stamp their mark on the universe.
I'm not a big fan of ET, which maybe shows... I haven't bothered getting into it at all, because I smell a retcon a mile away. But it bears all the hallmarks of a forced attempt to serialise a setting into a story.
Stuff like the Simpsons and Donald Duck comics work for decades because they don't try holding to a serial continuity.
Bitterman:
I LOVED Khaine xD
But then again, i play DE as well. That might mean a lot!
Malorndk
I play DE, and ET: Khaine offended me profoundly.
It basically tried to tell me that all the reasons I'd invested 25 years of my life in buying, collecting and painting Dark Elf models, and playing games with them, were all invalid LOL ROFL but wouldn't I like to buy some Phoenix Guard and Silver Helms and Swordmasters and Wardancers and add them to my
Dark Combined BFF Elf army?
Choosing my words very, very carefully: no. No, I would not.
cornixt:
Grimgor wrecking Zharr-Naggrund? Well MY Zharr-Naggrund isn't defended with crossbows and holding up the black gate is an equivilant feat to lifting the world edge mountains. Couldn't we just after years of being thread on be allowed to get the Endtimes with the Bull Statue erect!!
MadHatter
That part is so jarring in my mind that it makes far more sense to think that the city was allowed to be taken while the rest of the CD empire was going somewhere else with all their good stuff in order to preserve themselves. Probably carved out a hefty section of the warp to live in for a while.
Dînadan:
Grimgor wrecking Zharr-Naggrund? Well MY Zharr-Naggrund isn't defended with crossbows and holding up the black gate is an equivilant feat to lifting the world edge mountains. Couldn't we just after years of being thread on be allowed to get the Endtimes with the Bull Statue erect!!
MadHatter
That part is so jarring in my mind that it makes far more sense to think that the city was allowed to be taken while the rest of the CD empire was going somewhere else with all their good stuff in order to preserve themselves. Probably carved out a hefty section of the warp to live in for a while.
cornixt
Begs the question why not use daemon-binding and magi-tech to turn the ziggurat into a giant space ship and fly that into the warp? Doesn't make that much sense but would fit in with the over the toppedness of the ET, and if they wanted to squat CDs thn they could just have it crash or blow up or whatever just after take-off.
Thommy H:
I’m assuming the Zharr-Naggrund stuff is in a Black Library novel, because Archaon doesn’t mention it at all, and it even summarises what Grimgor has been up to before he shows up in Middenheim. No indication he went to the Dark Lands at all.