[Archive] Engineers and warmachines?

Grimstonefire:

Hypothetically if we had a hero level character in our list, what sort of options would you give him that affected the way warmachines played generally?

For instance, the Dwarf master engineer allows one warmachine to be entrenched. That affects the warmachine itself, not how it fires.

Ideas?

Thommy H:

My idea: Daemonsmith (or whatever) as a Champion-level upgrade to a warmachine crew. If you plan to use the Hellcannon rules as a basis (whereby it counts as a monster and handlers), then the presence of a Daemonsmith would allow it to re-roll Leadership tests to avoid rampaging. This fits in with the “crew” as essentially just a Ld upgrade in the WoC book.

Grimstonefire:

Off topic in my own thread… but how feasible would it be to have all CD warmachines treated with monster/ handler rules?  Obviously they wouldn’t all Rampage, movement more like D6.

It would certainly make the CD warmachines play very unusually, adding a chaotic element. They could even have individual characters!

Thommy H:

Yeah, my current plan is to follow the Hellcannon rules in that regard. So every war machine is a monster with handlers, and has attacks and wounds. It would open up the possibility of using Chaos Dwarfs as a monster army too, with loads of rampaging daemon engines running around.

I’m also now in love with the idea of having a war machine special character… Thanks, Grim!

Obsidian:

A warmachine special character, now that sounds awesome!

Grimstonefire:

Now that would be interesting… A warmachine character with it’s own back story.

I think I will have to revise the war machine rules in my list if I give this a lot more thought.

Willmark:

Enigineers make sense from the fluff perspective, the rules on how to acutately represent them is the devil in the details.

Chaos dwarfs aren’t to numerous so it stands the reason a good number of high ups would be a character type hero.

Thommy H:

I think too much is made of their small numbers - remember that there are only “relatively few” Chaos Dwarfs, compared to the slaves. So, if there’s millions of slaves, there could still be hundreds of thousands of Chaos Dwarfs…

Hashut’s Blessing:

The raceof Dwarfs isn’t all that large though, Thommy H and it’s dwindling. It stands to reason that the CDs aren’t in a situation too far from that.

I think if you’d like to make it seem as though a lot of powerful CDs are also engineers, give them some engineer like options: spanner and welding mask, gives them the option to re-roll a misfire chart result or something.

Alternatively, if you think engineers are abundant (but not necessarily supreme), have a rule of the first misfire by each machine may re-roll their chart result.

Just a couple of random ideas, more to start cogs churning (pun wasn’t intended and I didn’t realise it at first lol) than anything.

Thommy H:

The raceof Dwarfs isn't all that large though, Thommy H and it's dwindling. It stands to reason that the CDs aren't in a situation too far from that.
Why? The Dwarfs are living in a crumbling empire beset on all sides (especially below) from Goblins and Skaven. The Chaos Dwarfs are the most powerful force in the Dark Lands, with almost limitless wealth and resources. There's nothing anywhere to suggest they're few in number - they're only comparatively few, and that's just making a point about how dependent they are on their slaves.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Well, I’d imagine since it was only one hold (if memory serves) that went to the Darklands, there really wouldn’t be many. it’s a small piece of the dwarf society that left and, yes, there may have been population growth, but the harshness of the environment and culture begs it to be logical (although not the only possibility) that there wouldn’t be too many.

Also, it’s how people see the numbers. From what a lot of people on this website have said they think, they’re not enough to take over the world for example. You may see them as being that numerous, but it’s all preferential, such as big hats and masks.

Thommy H:

Well, I'd imagine since it was only one hold (if memory serves) that went to the Darklands
Not sure it says that anywhere.
but the harshness of the environment
It's not harsh for Dwarfs though, who judge the value of territory by its mineral wealth.
they're not enough to take over the world for example.
Well who is? If the hundreds of thousands of Chaos Warriors inhabiting the wastes can't even conquer the Empire, why does "not enough to take over the world" mean "so few that anything interesting would have to be a character".

I just don't think we should get hung up on the "small numbers" concept so much that perfectly good ideas are shot down based on that alone. To use your big hat analogy, it'd be like discounting a troop type because they couldn't work with tall helmets.

Hashut’s Blessing:

To the first point: I said if memory serves for a reason :wink:

To the second: It is still arid and difficult to live in, as well as volatile and with some dangerous creatures roaming.

To the third: I was trying to make them seem not too big without you saying “but there could be more”. It seems I went too far and made them seem more numerous than I was trying to express. Besides, at no point have I even IMPLIED that only characters have to be interesting: if you look above, I’m quite sure I said something along the lines of making it a racial feature that they’re good engineers to avoid having only characters being interesting.

At no point have I shot down ANY concept and if I were to, it certainly wouldn;t be because of the numbers. Again, as I said above, to me it’s personal view on the numbers. I never tried to change your mind and say we’re few, just tried to make you accept that I have a different view, which you seem a little reluctant to do as each of your responses is geared, at least implicitly (whether intentional or not) to make me say “Nope, I was wrong about my opinion. We’re very numerous after all, but we have 20 million times more slaves, which i’d already believed”.

That’s not necessarily how you meant to come across and I apologise if it offends you that I feel a little like that is how you did.

Thommy H:

I’m just saying let’s not use fan-based assumptions as a reason to justify not doing something. Obviously everyone is welcome to interpret the background as they see fit and we all put our own spin on Chaos Dwarfs since the canon is so sparse, but I just see a lot of things repeated as fact which really don’t have any basis in background written by GW.

It’s really just a pet hate of mine. If people would like Engineers to be characters then that’s fine, but I’m not convinced that “there aren’t many Chaos Dwarfs” is a very good reason. It’d be like shooting down a berserker-type unit because they wouldn’t wear big hats.

Hashut’s Blessing:

That’s fair enough. It’s also partly why I sugeested having options for making heroes engineers instead of having seperate engineer heroes or have a racial rule instead.

Grimstonefire:

Off topic (again), but I remember somebody doing a long calculation of how many Dwarfs there were at present. The number came out at around 4 million from what I remember.

So even if the CD were only 20% of that it’s still 800,000…