I think the catagories thing is a good idea, maybe as GH is a painting contest the model section could be just for conversions and sculpts?
The contest would need alot more interest for that to work though. But…
The first is exposure.
The Golden Hat competition is an integral feature of the site, and will remain so for a long time to come. The Artisans Contest never had the same hype, and we never quite got it right deciding how exactly it would be organised and what themes it could cover.
Xander, HB and Willmark have plans for the first issue above.
…if they have that covered it might work.
i like wallacer idea. To break it up it seams more simple this way So now we know what it is
it gives you a better idea
Yep, categories is the way to go.
Most of the staff is if the same mindset: so far Artisans has gone to the one with the best submitted art, rather then the best submitted description. This was particularily evident in AC1.I could not disagree more.
There were very few outside-the-box ideas in the submissions, so since most of the entries had the same ideas, or very similar, of course at that point, the idea taken the furthest, ie/ into great art will then win. Also, as was mentioned above, 2 points don't set a trend. So, to put AC1 as evidence is already weak at best, but then to completely ignore the AC2 which further contradicts the evidence, isn't really a strong argument at all in my eyes.
I will re-iterate, why not try AC3 as already established, just not alongside a GH contest. Run independantly, more accurate levels of interest can be weighed, and at least with 3, trends could more reasonably be pointed to.
Maybe I should have said that I believe (rather then all of the Staff) facts remain:
Entrant #5- Got ten votes out of 24 for 41%
Entrants #2 and 3- Got 4 votes each for 16.67% each
#3 and especially #5 had graphical elements to them. I remain unconvinced that having graphical elements didn't unduly aid the voting.
Now I'm fine with people disagreeing its just I don't view the results in the same light as you do.
Hence the reason for the long behind scenes discussions and then us looking for everyone's input.
"Mission Statement: …evolve the Chaos Dwarf army in a welcoming and open minded environment…"
My opinion is that it should be a design contest; descriptions that can include drawings to supplement the description. I think it should also be more about creating/exploring the fluff and history Chaos Dwarfs. Examples: stories, creating special characters, mapping out cities (or describing them)
The artisan contests were fair, everyone followed the rules. People are fickle, the next time it might be a description that wins.
Make all votes in contests summited to an account (like the latest GH contests) so people can’t see who is winning.
Splitting the contest up is an interesting idea. We still award three medals, but only one in each category.
However, I am also inclined to agree with Vexxus, that a 3rd, full blown, and fully supported AC#3 would be a good starting point. And see what happens after that.
Making it into principally terriain-making/designing contest would be good, since you can never completely exhaust the possibilities of terrain.
I’m possibly being influenced by the fact that I recently started making terrain for the first time.
I agree with wallacer’s categories idea, but not sure where he got a lack of name change from If we steer clear of miniatures (as in content that would better suit GH, even theoretical models) this would work brilliantly. Mr. Xander beat me to it, but have a single mdeal for each ctaegory instead of Gold, Silver and Bronze.
I do think it would be a good idea to use Vexxus’ thought of doing a third AC before returning to this thread, however, a lot of people have already stated things not pertaining to the coincidement with GH. I see no harm in doing an AC in the previous style and seeing if it changes people’s minds though.
It really does seem, to me, that the best idea is 3 categories (dependent upon level of work) with a mdeal for each. Thommy H, you seem closest to the idea of the level of work being unfair, so I’m particularly in want of hearing your thought on that issue. Conversely, I disagree with the idea of it becoming purely terrain based as that limits more than is necessary. It already includes the possibilty of all terrain, but allows us to do other things to, which allows more people to participate.
Okay, well here’s what I think about it.
Let’s imagine a situation in the next Artisan’s Contest, where the task is to design a piece of terrain. I decide to enter and come up with an idea for a small obsidian ziggurat. I figure out how I’d build it, maybe I jot down a few ideas in writing - maybe I do a sketch too. Once that’s done, I break out the tools and materials and build the thing. It’s just a three-step ziggurat with no embellishments, about 6" square on the lowest level and about 4" high. I make it from cardboard or polystyrene or whatever, and then paint it with a kind of black marble effect. It looks good. I take some photos and enter it.
At the same time, someone else has come up with the same idea. They write down their plans but, while doing so, come up with some more ideas. Their ziggurat is not just a ziggurat - it has little flames on each corner (with OSL effects around them) and a statue of Hashut at the top (perhaps made from a converted Wood Elf Great Stag or something). He describes this purely hypothetical model precisely, and enters it in the contest.
Now, in a completely objective sense, his terrain piece would be better than mine. It’s the same thing, but with more stuff on it, so it would have to be better, right? Except, I actually built mine. My rival hasn’t even proved that he’s capable of building his, and it may well never exist. It’s possible he just came up with the idea to get a medal. By the standards of the contest, he should actually win, even though I’ve done as much and more as he has (because I wrote down my ideas and did a sketch on the way to physically building it) but if I lost out to that guy in those circumstances, I wouldn’t be pleased.
However… I don’t think I would lose. I think that, like me, people instinctively vote for the guy who actually built his entry. I think most people feel exactly the same way as me about this issue without even realising. There’s no way you can compare writing about something to actually building it and we all realise that. If someone comes to you with an idea for an invention or product, you might listen, but if someone shows up with a working prototype, you put down what you’re doing and pay attention. It shows that the person is invested in the project, and they’re not just medal-hunting.
So, I think that the contest is flawed. People don’t vote the way the rules tell them to - they vote for people who built an entry, even if a described or sketched entry is better. It’s instinct. This means the contest needs to change and be adapted to fit the way people are voting, because the current system obviously isn’t working. Either make it a craft, writing or drawing contest, or introduce categories to separate entries of those kinds, otherwise, the craft entries are just going to win 99% of the time.
Okay, this proposal might not lie well with some of you:
Why not just scrap the Artisan’s Contest?
Not many poeple enter, it doesn’t carry 1% of the prestige that the Golden Hat does, and the very fact we’re having this discussion shows that its been a bit of a flop. The original idea was to have a contest which enabled people who aren’t too hot at painting and converting to win a medal. There are now plenty of ways to do this - Word of Hashut, CD radio and the wiki all give medals to those who are better with words than brushes, and the army and gallery medals are non-competitive.
Most gamers have a hundred and one hobby ideas a day. I can write at great legth about how I want to create a giant six foot temple board with lava flowign down he side of cliff faces into giant sacrificial pits. I can imagine a great fifty barrelled daemon cannon that can level cities with a single shot. Do I deserve a medal simply for imagining thingswhich will never happen.
My suggestion is this - Ditch the AC in its current form. Use the Golden HAt as the motivator for people to finish their armies, and a new contest (called the Artisans’ if we so wish) to boost efforts to produce things such as terreign or non army linked stuff. If you say stuff doesn’t have to be painted it explores a different avenue to GH as well, as those who are good at making but not painting won’t be put off. I don’t think in its current form AC adds to the site
The original idea was to have a contest which enabled people who aren't too hot at painting and converting to win a medal
Yeah...to be honest, the Artisan's Contest does kind of feel like an excuse to hand out a medal. What's more, if that was the original aim, it hasn't really achieved it, because the first one was won by Ishkur (who has a Golden Hat to his name) and the second one by an excellently built and painted model by Orclord, who is therefore probably capable of winning a Golden Hat too.
Thommy H, it really seems that you haven’t read my last post. I’d mentioned that it would be split up into three categoreis. If you wrote an idea in great detail, drew a sketch and built it, you’d be entered into all three. If the other person thought of the same thing with a few extras, they would be entered into the written one only. It is effectively three contests mixed into one, so the fact you’re saying (still) that people will vote for one that’s built over one that’s not cannot occur due to the very fact that they aren’t in the same category. Also, as for saying they cannot built it, the rules will still include that it must be physically capable of being built (even if not by that member themself due to a lack of say terrain-making skill).
AGPO, I disagree because a lot of people were saying they wanted this sort of competition. The Word of Hashut isn’t a contest, CDR has a guest speaker each episode, the wiki is about member contribution rather than inciting people to compete. The army and gallery medals are for painted miniatures only, effectively a GH race type thing. It’s aim is to get those that feel that aren’t good enough for GH to still be able to have a chance for a competition medal and the bragging rights that follow.
To both of you, I feel it’s unfair to say that because you think it’s not been perfected thus far (due in no small part to it’s coincideded running times with GH and the fact it hadn’t been advertised so well, nor supported as much so far), that it is a worthless venture of which nobody would want to participate.
AGPO, as for the idea about having a new competition dealing with terrain and non-army stuff, that’s what AC is about. You’ve described exactly what the AC is. As for it being a flop:
(due in no small part to it’s coincideded running times with GH and the fact it hadn’t been advertised so well, nor supported as much so far),
rather than the actual content itself and this thread is here to try and provide some system of feedback of how to improve
Thommy H, I don’t understand how it’s an “excuse” to give out medals. There is still competition to get such medals, people enjoyed Ishkur’s idea and production of it, as they did Orclord’s. That wasn’t the original aim and it’s always been stated that it’s original aim was to get those that are less gifted at painted a chance to win something.
Thommy H, it really seems that you haven't read my last post
Sorry, I thought you were just asking me to clarify my opinion on the whole "effort not being rewarded by the current system" issue. Categories would be better, yes, and if someone could enter all three with the same entry then so much the better.
Thommy H, I don't understand how it's an "excuse" to give out medals. There is still competition to get such medals, people enjoyed Ishkur's idea and production of it, as they did Orclord's. That wasn't the original aim and it's always been stated that it's original aim was to get those that are less gifted at painted a chance to win something.
Well there you go then - you said it yourself. It's to give less talented people "a chance to win something". It's like "Everyone Gets a Trophy Day", isn't it ;) I'm all for there being lots of opportunities to get rewards - I run a collaborative/competitive writing game on another forum so I know how hard it is to get people to join in and contribute to something when there aren't a lot of tangible rewards for doing so - but creating a contest that specifically caters for those who can't win the main contest seems pretty counter-productive to me, particularly when the winner is someone who's won the first contest in the past anyway!
Like AGPO said, there are lots of ways for people to earn medals and contribute without another contest. Now, I don't want to just get rid of the Artisan's Contest, but I definitely think it needs to have its aim clarified. A "contest for the people who couldn't win another contest" is not appealing to most people.
On the first point, my apologies for a lack of clarity.
Those less gifted at painting, was what I said (admittedly, I put painted. Damned errors, he he he). The contest is to encourage those more gifted at creation, artistry and sculpting/building. therefore, it is for a different genre rather than for thise that are flat-out pants at everything (note: I don’t think anybody here is and if it sounds like I’m implying Thommy H does, it is not meant to be implied at all).
If we say that there are enough other weays for people to get medals, then surely we should scrap GH too by those standards? I am happy to hear you don’t wish it to be scrapped, but I do believe that you’ve entirely misread the aim of the competition. If we’d made AC first and then discussed GH as we are discussing AC now, would you say that the painting competition is for meant to be for the talentless? I don’t believe you would (I may very well be wrong). As I’ve said before, it’s not put put forth across, hence why we wish to tweak it to be right.
Well, it just seems that the sentiment that keeps coming up is that this contest was for people who felt the GH was unfairly elitist. I know it’s for a totally different thing, but obviously the instinct with Warhammer is to reward painting figures first and foremost - a contest for anything else invariably feels like a kind of runner-up reward. My perception is that the Artisan’s Contest was primarily introduced because the GH was seen to be unfair to less talented painters (I may be wrong, but I think that’s been said a couple of times in this thread already) - to me, that makes it seem like a less prestigious contest. It doesn’t help that talented painters are winning it anyway.
There just needs to be a lot of clear water between the Artisan’s Contest and the Golden Hat. Maybe remove the craft aspect altogether if necessary and make it a pure “ideas” contest.
Seems the point is being missed that ideas is all well and good, but actually having terrain to use, or battlefield markers of different things is very helpful? And win or not you’ll still have the model at the end. So a pure ideas contest isn’t very viable in the long run IMO as people might lose interest.
The basic issue with the AC is whether we needed to put terrain/ ideas/ markers etc in a competition at all… Or simply found another way to encourage members to look at these things.
They certainly don’t HAVE to be in a competition, but I for one know that having deadlines and testing your skills (in writing/ drawing/ building) is a nice pressure to get me actually doing something.
Splitting it into 3 categories would be beneficial in some ways, but it would require greater work by the staff. I.e. editing descriptions for grammar/ spelling, making sure that descriptions don’t include artwork or photos, making sure that if people entered the drawing one and included descriptions they clarified whether they want the same text entered in descriptions etc.
We would probably need to have a specific word count on each category, this might solve a lot of problems.
That said though if that is what people want, that is what they shall have. The staff will just need to look closely at exactly how it would be done.
Well, it was for those that wished to be able to enter a different kind of competition. Thhat coincided with a lot of people who felt they had no chance in the GH and wanted to attempt something else. Thusly, it’s linked, but the primary reason is for a second creative outlet.
The clear water is supposed to be the fact that GH is making and painting a miniature for battle and the AC is for devising, designing and making items that will aid a battle or possibly background/out-of-game “gift”.
GSF, with the previous two ACs (admittedly, it wasn’t much effort for the second one, he he he), I edited all of the written work to be to the same standard (this also allowed it to add a little more anonymity). I’d be happy to do so for this. Unless we have a member of staff dedicated to each section?
But, I agree that word count limits must be placed.
AGPO, I disagree because a lot of people were saying they wanted this sort of competition. The Word of Hashut isn't a contest, CDR has a guest speaker each episode, the wiki is about member contribution rather than inciting people to compete. The army and gallery medals are for painted miniatures only, effectively a GH race type thing. It's aim is to get those that feel that aren't good enough for GH to still be able to have a chance for a competition medal and the bragging rights that follow.
I wasn't claiming that they were competitions, simply that it is now more than possible for those without the ability to win GH to win medals for making really effective contributions to the site. I'd ask whether winning a competition for those who aren't capable of winning the main event really gives all that many bragging rights. There are plenty of ways to be recognised now for your contribution but if we did a poll I think we'd probablly find the artisans contest was the least prestigious medal out of all.
To both of you, I feel it's unfair to say that because you think it's not been perfected thus far (due in no small part to it's coincideded running times with GH and the fact it hadn't been advertised so well, nor supported as much so far), that it is a worthless venture of which nobody would want to participate.
I haven't said that it was a worthless venture, nor that nobody would wish to participate. I have said that I feel it is a failed venture which hasn't done much to add to the site. Both contests have recieved an announcement on the website, a voting thread and a discussion thread on the forum. Therefore they have the same level of advertising. The fact it coinsided with the Golden Hat and didn't do nearly so well in terms of interest, support and participation underlines the fact that it doesn't really fulfill a role.
AGPO, as for the idea about having a new competition dealing with terrain and non-army stuff, that's what AC is about. You've described exactly what the AC is. As for it being a flop this thread is here to try and provide some system of feedback of how to improve the competition.
Read my post more carefully. I was saying that a second contest should boost production. The Golden Hat has led to the production of some truly impressive and inspiring miniatures, and induces many people to put in a lot of effort to produce someting they are proud of. Very few people actually produce
something for the artisan's. A competition to convert something like terrain, not neccesarily painting it but at least making something would have my whole-hearted support. The title of this thread is "feedback on the artisan's contest." I have given my feedback and suggestions of how a second contest might be made to work. I spent time and effort composing my response and tried to give an imaginative suggestion. Under the criteria for the contest, I would actually have provided a reasonable entry ;)
If we say that there are enough other weays for people to get medals, then surely we should scrap GH too by those standards? I am happy to hear you don't wish it to be scrapped, but I do believe that you've entirely misread the aim of the competition. If we'd made AC first and then discussed GH as we are discussing AC now, would you say that the painting competition is for meant to be for the talentless?
This really doesn't hold water. The critisism from Tommy and I was that "a contest for the people who couldn't win another contest" is not appealing to most people. This is especially true because these people can earn medals in many other ways. The Golden Hat showcases the best miniatures painting and converting on the site, so obviously we wouldn't describe it as "a competition for the talentless" as you put it. You've said yourself that the artisans is there for those who don't have the talent to win GH, its a pretty poor argument
For those with the ability, GH earns them recognition and prestige on the site. For those who lack that ability, there are many other ways of gaining that recognition and winning medals which carry far more weight than the Artisans. This makes the original role of the artisan's contest redundant. If we wish to showcase other talents, we could ahve a short story competition, a terrain building competition, or even a competition for the simplest way to produce a battle ready unit of chaos dwarfs would all do this job better.
For an army like CD that has little or no official model support, the AC still serves an important purpose. It encourages people to break out of the mindset of waiting for the next official release from GW, and encourages them to think about how to convert their own stuff, or come up with their own unit ideas, or make their own terrain.
For other armies this may not be that important, but for us it is pretty much a necessity.
The problem is not that the AC lacks prestige or that it should be abolished, but simply that it is not well defined enough. All it needs is clear categories and possibly a name change and it will serve it’s purpose admirably.
doesn’t the whole site do that Wallacer? MAybe we should try to promote more tutorials like Xanders. A competition for those would be great and give us some superb material