I've always agreed with that as well, however, the Direwolf FAQ sn't official and so it's safest to get someone impartial to decide in front of the pair of you and then play it that way to avoid arguments.
Also, I'm not sure how he could be "hiding" his dragon, since it's a large target and can be seen over other units ;)
Put simply, get out some bolt throwers (one to two special choices worth) and an earthshaker, then just play the game and watch it fall. If he complains, say it was a fair army and it still wasn't a fair fight against a dragon in that small of a points game ;)
Hashut's Blessing
Since GW no longer writes the FAQ�?Ts the dire wolf council is as close to official as it can get. I do not agree with all of there rulings, but they help clarify things. In this case it works because they pint out that all you have to do is read the earth shaker�?Ts rules. It says that the movement of all units is halved. There is no distinction between foot and flying units. If you read it as RAW it affects flyers too.
If the player using the dragon mage is any good then you will never get a chance to shoot at it with a bolt thrower. You have to use the terrain to screen him, such as woods and hills. Move across the board while hugging the terrain out of line of site. Do this for two or three turns, the whole time casting conflagration, which the bolt throwers will probably be a target in at lest one of those turns. Then around turn 4 fly behind the opponent�?Ts lines use a magic missile on a bolt thrower, then conflagration another one and make sue that you landed close enough to panic one in the opponents turn. Then in the shooting phase you can dragon breath weapon one of them. He will then start to look towards your earth shaker crew as a tasty dessert. If the high elf player knows even a small amount of what he is doing he should be able to take out all of your bolt throwers in one if not two turns. That is if he did not take them out already with his own repeater bolt throwers or long bows. Remember you only have tow naked hobgoblins as crew.
1. you are gambling on being able to hide. You think your opponent might not have some nasty non-line of sight spells. Plus the BT’s being close together is one or the other of your spells don’t go off.
2. You are gambling on the Bows, RBT’s rolling high on the random roll and you are still rolling to hit and wound.
3. You are gambling on the Winds of Magic and not rolling Miscasts or failed casting rolls.
4. You are hoping that you are facing armies with no fast shooty units, fast moving magic casters or monsters themselves.
By your assumptions you should always win with a Dragon, but there are reasons to play the game. What is the line, Best laid plans never survive contact with the enemy.
By your assumptions you should always win with a Dragon, but there are reasons to play the game. What is the line, Best laid plans never survive contact with the enemy.
BilboBaggins
It is all a game of chance, but in a game with an experienced player I would put my money on a dragon mage rather then a couple of hobgoblins. I was simply explaining that you can not always depend on "shoot the big one" as a tactic.
As much as you spout that you think the Dragon Mage is great (I’m beginning to think you have a slight ego problem :D) but you still have to admit the risks of putting nearly a third of your points in one model. Reminds me of the GW Manager a few years ago who wouldn’t play his 2k Lizardmen army without a second gen slann that he claimed couldn’t be wounded by shooting. I did happen to to prove that theory wrong when I played against him.
Yes, the Dragon Mage can be dangerous but can still be neutralized in a game.
As much as you spout that you think the Dragon Mage is great (I'm beginning to think you have a slight ego problem :D) but you still have to admit the risks of putting nearly a third of your points in one model.
BilboBaggins
I never said that it was full proof, just in the hands of a good player it could be tough in a small game. I am also not a fan of putting all the eggs in one basket, but people do it. Bolt throwers are not always the solution to every problem.
The Brain, I agreed that that is how it should be played, so I’m not entirely sure why you started to say that if you read it it simply points that out and RAW states that too. On top of which, as close to official as you can get still isn’t official, which is why I suggest you show them the Dire Wolf FAQ and state that it’s not. Some people only care if it actually IS official, not if it’s the next best thing to it because the official doesn;t exist. That’s all I was saying.
As for saying all of that about a decent player using the Sun Dragon like that and how Bolt Throwers aren’t the answer to everything, it could be said about any mage with non line of sight spells and bolt throwers will certainly give you a better chance of taking it down and don’t chew through the remaining points to spend on the rest of your army. It’s not as though they’re useless against the rest of the opponent’s army either.
Also, if you get irresistible force and a miscast at the same time, you cast the spell, but you still take the miscast, so it’s not biggy. On top of that, it seems the opponent has enough power dice for irressistible force to be almost irrelevant (almost because of dispel scrolls).
I’m curious as to what your suggestions for fighting against the Sun Dragon are, rather than pointing out that a decent player will wipe the floor using one or the discrepencies with our advice. No plan is a perfect one after all, so we already know the drawbacks.
Also, if you get irresistible force and a miscast at the same time, you cast the spell, but you still take the miscast,
The miscast overrides the irresistible force. Throwing loads of dice is more likely to end badly than well in terms of doubles rolled.
If a dragon mage wants to spend all game hiding and killing my 30pt BTs, thats fine by me. If it wants to voluntarily risk miscasts, potentially removing the whole model on a double 1, thats also fine by me :)
If all else fails, take Black Gem of Gnar on a Hero and lead them into a big chunky unit. Gnar him, out combat res him and run him off.
It would be supremely foolish of him to charge a ranked unit anyway, its not a 'proper' Dragon, the unit will likely win even if its just the Champion who challenges.
Baggronor: I didn’t read the new edition thoroughly enough to spot that change it seems, lol. In 6th, at least, it was a case of double 6 and double 1 means the spell is cast with IF, but you suffer a miscast too. Still, with that change, it’s a lot more dangerous for him to be rolling 4 or 5 dice. Also, you raise an excellent point; if the Sun Dragon is killing four or so bolt throwers, that’s 120 points, compared to his 415 points…
Magic, bolt throwers and earthshakers seem the best bet… I keep going to suggest a great taurus or lammasu, but it’s a 1,500 point game (which is what I forget). Just concentrate fire with war machines and then let your army decimate his, since you should be piling in 200-300 points more than he is.
The way I played it in 6th edition was double 1’s (Miscast) over-ruled double 6’s (Irritable Force).
So time to pull out the Warhammer Rulebook again.
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So it is written in the BRB.
Warhammer Main Rulebook, Page 108, Heading Miscast, 3rd Paragraph:
“Obviously the chance of rolling a miscast or irresistible force in increased by rolling more dice. Such is the nature of magical power! If a spell is miscast and is cast with irresistible force at the same time (eg. from a five dice roll the player gets two 1’s and two 6’s) then the spell counts as miscast. Miscasts take precedence in this case.”
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Miscasts overrule Irresistible Force. CASE CLOSED.
He used to just blindly throw it into combats and I would have an easy time killing it, but now he sees how easy it dies in combat and he now just flies away if I get to close and throws spells at me with like 5 power dice which is really hard to dispel.
Shorel
it's a lvl2, so he can only use 3 dice + the free one = 4
(it's still a lot but one less :p)