[Archive] Fireglaives pro and cons

Bassman:

Hello,
I am testing fireglaives because I think we still need shooting troops, because it’s fun to test something different :slight_smile: and because I’ve spent too much time painting my 5th edition blunderbusses to left them take dust on shelves :cheers

I had around 400 points to invest on them so I choose 20 of them with full command.
During 3 battles (Vampires, Demons, Empire) they permormed ok as a H&H troop (S5 is great and basic profile of Infernal guard is really good) but literally failed as shooting troop!

Hereinafter you can find my battle reports, battles on page 2 with fireglaives)
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10132&pid=174554#pid174554

During three battles against low T and low armor troops their shooting managed to kill 2 (!) reiksguard and take 1 wound from a warghulf. Nothing else, really!

Their BS 3 combined with short range 18" is really a problem.
They always hit at 5 or 6, it’s almost impossible to have better roll in normal situations :frowning:
Their ability to wound is ok, their S4 and armor piercing are excellent but with 3-4 hits per battle do not see the point to invest 100 points!
They do not remove ranks, they do not reduce combat effectivness of enemy regiments and they do not panic them at all.
Up to these days I’ve never seen many lone characters roaming around alone to target.

Said so I am really thinking to invest on great weapons. They hit with S6, so becoming a problem for Warghulfs and other medium (even big) monsters and they are cheaper as well.
Who said they strike last? With I2 we strike last even with fireglaives.

What do you think?

Grimbold Blackhammer:

There is a law in Warhammer something to the effect of, the more chaff units you have, the better your shooting phase will be.  Shooting relies on being able to slow down an enemy so you can get more shots in.  Squeeze in an extra Khan or Hobgoblin Wolf Riders (which I prefer only because they have more wounds and look cooler) and buy yourself an extra round or two of shooting.  Also keep Ash Storm, Miasma applied to an enemy’s movement rate, Dreadquake Mortars, and Flame Cage in mind to slow units or hold them in place. Then your Fireglaives & Blunderbusses will really start to pay off.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Bassman:

I know what you mean. I try to use chaffs to slow down the enemy but it’s really worth an extra round of shooting?

I mean, an extra round, even at close range, means two-three more dead…not so much. I’m talking about shooting T3 infantry with 4+ armour save. I’m not talking about Chaos warriors or ogres… just mere Empire humans.

Another problem is, with such a short range and movement 3 it’s the enemy that choose who the fireglaives are shooting at. At least a smart player…

The only advantage I found in the fireglaives is that they are one of the few shooting units that does not fear the enemy. So they can get very close to the enemy and they are effective in H2H.

ChungEssence:

Cheers for the report. I need to give Fireglaives a try

GodHead:

They really aren’t worth it.

Infernal Guard are already too expensive.

Paying 5 points to remove their shield in close combat, with a side effect of giving them S5 in combat and some useless BS based shooting is a total waste.

You will be lucky to shoot more than twice in a game with them.

You will be lucky to do as well in combat with them compared to leaving them with shields.

It is a silly upgrade with an inappropriate cost.

Da Crusha:

Im with godhead on this one. bassman does bring up a good point though about this unit not having to fear anything. I would still rather run them without fireglaives though.

Bassman:

Im with godhead on this one. bassman does bring up a good point though about this unit not having to fear anything. I would still rather run them without fireglaives though.

Da Crusha
You confirm my ideas about them but I want to give fireglaives more tries before dropping them.
After all my Blunderbusses looks too cool to be left on shelves ;)
and, honestly, I do not see the point at all to field them with actual blunderbusses: 18 points a 12" range, strenght 3 weapon? No way :(

If nothing happens to change my mind I will try, in a more competitive list, GW Infernal guards.

EDIT: By the way, to improve discussion!

I found another tactical problem. To further improve fireglaives performances I fielded them 7x3, so at least 14 can shoot.
I'm tempted to field them 10x2 but I'm gonna loose a rank. This is a problem, as they perform so nice in H2H :/ but need ranks to stand against other infantries.
I fileded them 5x4 but doing so only 10 shot.... a non sense with such an expensive upgrade.

Mmmmmh, thousands years of evolution for dwarfs to come to such a crappy rifle? :(

JonJon:

How about using them to support the big Ironguard unit. A 40 man Ironguard unit with 12 man firegave support (i think the blunderbuses are better but I bought 10 of them and want to use them also)

Correct me if Im wrong but dont the bluderbuses keep their hand weapon an shields,so arent they better in close combat

Jon

nilbog:

I’ve converted some fireglaives and really want to use them, but they’ve let me down so far. BS based shooting is rubbish, especially BS3.

However, I’m tempted by blunders, even at 6 points extra. They lose no utility in HtH as they keep the use of their shields, but get the extra shooting attack. 28 blunders, 7x4 puts out 44 (on average) S3 armour piercing shots, with rerolls to wound. That’s 10 dead swordmasters, roughly, and you’ve made your points back.

Bassman:

Nilbog: 28 blunderbusses means 168 points more than the same unit with shield and hand weapon

Getting rid of the blunderbusses I can get a Death shrieker for 100 points and still have 68 points.

Reducing the unit by one, so 27 infernals I can get them with GWs.

Better unit in H2H and the 10 swordmasters would be gone at least two turns before thanks to the longer range of the Death Shrieker!

Or keep them with H2H and have a fatty unit of 32 Infernals.

Better range weapon, better H2H unit :wink:

This is the great problem with our ranged weapons: warmachines can do far better for a cheaper price.

ChungEssence:

"This is the problem with our ranged weapons: warmachines can do far better for a cheaper price. "

Yeah but they look so good…

Blunderbusses at least have a potent mental threat with the big mobs and re-rolls to wound, even with the st 3 they can put the fear into enemies. In a friendly game I had great success with a unit of 30 (so many points ouchies) and they devastated over the course of the game a lot of high elves (good match up with 5+ armor and Strength 3), shooting them up then finishing the chargers in melee. That was due to good manouvering though and my battleline centered around them. I’m just glad as a dwarf player that the blunder horde can turn on the spot and blast.

DanceswithGnomes:

:hat off

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

Mat the hairy:

From my humble point of view, Fireglaives are great in small tactical units, aka MSU.

Take 13 of them, and they will protect you from all the pain in the XxX units like Light Cavalery. it is common sense to Tend to rush our warmachine with light cavalery and hope to get ride of them quickly. or to try to flank our IG*24/30 units. The aim of the Fireglaives is to reduce the Offensive potential of such units, not to kill or blow heads off like those Dark Elves Snipers, simplpy to reduce the Cavalery to a no threat stage.For instance, you face 10 Pistoleers from the Empire, they can do serious damage if not handled quickly, Reduce their number by 2/3 and they wont be able to disrupt your rank.

Burske:

This sounds very similar to the crossbow/gunline conversation for dwarves, when it comes down to it, WM are more deadly, and you can toss out more Str-6 GW CD’s to go smash stuff.

I have a bunch of blunderbusses and no fireglaves and wish I could fit them in, but the cost is just too high. At this point (which can change at any given moment) I don’t see them as a reasonable choice.

My two cents! :hat off

gIL^:

I think Fireglaives and Blunderbuss look all well and good till you see what else CD’s have.

Blunderbuss are 18 pts a model each with d3 shots so on average 2 shots a turn hitting on 5’s and wounding anything decent on 5’s

Alternatively Hobgoblins with bow cost a meagre 5pt’s a model so you can have 3.6 hobgobs instead of one CD.

Thats 3 definite shots at the same Bs and Str with double the range.

So the question is, Is the extra combat skills worth it?. In some cases i think yes, Some cases no.

My army is fielding 20 BB’s with command and 30 hobgobs with command. I have found the BB unit insanely tough but again they don’t do enough damage for their pt’s cost. Though the convenience of blowing a unit of the table can turn the tables so to speak.

Perhaps a smaller unit is better.