[Archive] First game with LoA

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

Baggronor:

So, I played my first game with the LoA yesterday, against my mate’s Ogres. The result was… hmmm. Not having the book yet, most of it was approximated from various threads - this also meant I ignored the Darkforged Weapons and couldn’t try the Lore of Hashut.

I took:

Sorcerer Prophet lv4 (Metal)

+Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield

Daemonsmith (Fire)

+Shield of Ptolos

Castellan BSB

+Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Shield

34 IG

+Full Command

40 Hobgoblins

+Shields, Full Command

6 K’Daai Fireborn

Magma Cannon

Deathshrieker

Hellcannon

K’Daai Destroyer

He had:

Slaughtermaster

+Fencer’s Blades, 5+ ward

Bruiser BSB

+Str 6 and Sword of Striking

Firebelly

+Dispel Scroll

8 Ironguts

8 Ogres

2 lone Sabretusks

Thundertusk

Ironblaster

3 Leadbelchers

4 Maneaters

+Scout, Stubborn, Pistols

3 Mournfangs

+Dragonhide Banner

Basic rundown:

I let him come to me, shot off a few ogres and killed the Thundertusk with a demolition shell. The Mournfangs charged the Destroyer and died over 2 turns. The scouting Maneaters got eaten by the Fireborn for no loss. The Firebelly immolated the Hobgoblins (breath weapon) and then him and the Ogre Bulls managed to grind down the Hellcannon. The IG charged the Ironguts, got flanked by the Bulls, failed a Ld10 re-rolled stubborn test but got away (obviously the BSB died though). The Destroyer then bashed down the remaining Ironguts and killed the Bruiser before failing a T test for 2 wounds and getting run over by the Ironblaster.

Magic was generally unimpressive from both sides. The result was a draw.

Thoughts:

4+ ward and Blazing Body is hideously powerful. The Destroyer really is retardedly good and the Fireborn are also excellent. They both raised eyebrows and prompted remarks about brokenness and cheese.

The IG were every bit as underwhelming as I expected, and that was fighting in 3 ranks. Not impressed. Although Glittering Robe did make them virtually unkillable, what is the point if they never kill anything in return. I may actually have to pay 3pts each for great weapons :sick

The Hellcannon is a crucial multi-tasker for the army, as expected. Flank guard, highest strength artillery and decent melee ability all in one.

Not sure Hobgoblins are worth it - I’m having doubts about the viability of a not-so cheap tarpit in such an elite army. They are actually quite expensive for what they are, not to mention the animosity. Undecided.

Unsure about the Lv4. He is good, and tough too, but he is so expensive. I’m starting to agree with the sentiments of some peole on here that maybe a monstrous mount is a worthwhile avenue to explore, it would stop the IG bus being the VP ‘jackpot’ that it is currently. Dropping him just seems wrong, and would also put undue stress on Heroes allowance.

In gaming terms, I’m disappointed. The total lack of internal balance means its pretty obvious what is and isn’t viable. I can’t see a place for the Iron Daemon (the speeding train that auto-loses to one guy on a horse, let alone an army of Ogres/Brets), or Bull Centaurs (2 Attacks each is just bulls**t, no pun intended) or the Dreadquake (how did no-one compare it to the Hellcannon at all?) or Wolf Riders (max 2 units and they’re in competition with the Hellcannon and Destroyer). The inability to include a Taur’ruk without a unit of BCs means he is a no-go too (he would have been good as a blocker with Crown of Command). Lone Khans are an option for anti-war machines, but dunno where I’d get the points - I suspect its only worth bothering if you take 2 or more. As it stands, I’m relying on the K’Daai (both types) and artillery to do 75% of the work. Not really fun :frowning:

Is this typical of people’s experiences thus far?

2

aka_mythos:

That seems to be what I was getting reading inbetween the lines of other opinions. How many points was your game?

What you took looks a lot like what I was planning, so this maybe the most useful write up. The consistent underperformance of IG and BC seem to be the most common disappointment. The fact the most effective portions of our army tends to sit in the back doesn’t help the hobgoblin units.

3

Time of Madness:

Is this typical of people's experiences thus far?

Baggronor
Exactly what I have been saying since I got the book. My current list uses the following - 2 units of infernal guard, 2 shriekers, 1 magma cannon, fireborn, destroyer (haven't had a chance to throw the hellcannon in there yet, but its next on my list of things to try). You'll notice the things I'm not taking - hobgoblins, centaurs, dreadquake and the iron daemon are similiar to what you have decided is a no go in your army.

Unfortunately I think most lists are going to develop to the point where they may start all looking the same (in competitive environments).

And just on a side note, infernal guard for me have been great anvils, I have been playing mine 5 wide to maximize the rank bonus and allow my opponent less attacks in close combat. They stick around forever and allow my fireborn and destroyer to get in on the flanks.

Time of Madness
4

Zhorn:

In gaming terms, I'm disappointed. The total lack of internal balance means its pretty obvious what is and isn't viable. I can't see a place for the Iron Daemon (the speeding train that auto-loses to one guy on a horse, let alone an army of Ogres/Brets), or Bull Centaurs (2 Attacks each is just bulls**t, no pun intended) or the Dreadquake (how did no-one compare it to the Hellcannon at all?) or Wolf Riders (max 2 units and they're in competition with the Hellcannon and Destroyer). The inability to include a Taur'ruk without a unit of BCs means he is a no-go too (he would have been good as a blocker with Crown of Command). Lone Khans are an option for anti-war machines, but dunno where I'd get the points - I suspect its only worth bothering if you take 2 or more. As it stands, I'm relying on the K'Daai (both types) and artillery to do 75% of the work. Not really fun :(

Is this typical of people's experiences thus far?

Baggronor
My experience from the 5 or so games i played with the new list are similar, but not the same.

While i am disappointed by bull centaurs (and i'm very, very sure that the unit would smash all that stands before it if the rules were written by GW proper - see mournfang cavalry) they are not useless.

3 BC (w/ greatweapons) work in a similar way like 5 dragon princes, or empire knights work: annoyance, wm hunters and countermeasures vs. pesky eagles, the aforementioned support cavalry units, small infantry units needing a rundown, etc. They are more durable than the support cavalry units of other armies and they're able to grind down opposing cavalry units due to consistent high strength.

It is a shame to see a former heavy hitter relegated to support tasks, but they work very well in that role (mine killed leadbelchers - after some starting problems; roadblocks  like 10 man empire greatswords, and worked ok as redirectors in dire situations). I feel the road to success with them is to keep them cheap and use them solely as support units.

So, it is still possible to include a Taur'uk by using 3 BCs (just don't put the hero in the unit!).

The wolf riders disappointed me in every single game. Maybe in really large armies a large unit led by a khan would be cool (i have 20 of the old 4th edition models, all lovely done ...), but i doubt they'll have any uses on the battle field. They just don't work as "behind the lines" troops, and as cheap redirectors they are far too unreliable and precious (rare slot). Maybe a unit near the IG center to divert the enemy...

HG infantry: I had some success with 50 w/ bows. But you are right, they ARE expensive. Still, since the bow upgrade is dirt cheap they get to project some force from turn 1 on. thus contributing to the game and are still able to form as a kind of tar pit vs. medium hard units.

Dreadquake vs. hellcannon: It is not even a contest. The dreadquake would be a bad gaming piece even if there was no hellcannon in the list to begin with. Easily taken out due to it's large base (and the horrible misfire chart...) it costs more than 2 bretonnian trebuchets for the same effect. If i want strength 5 artillery  i'll take magma cannons, thank you very much.

The hellcannon on the other hand does wonders for the list: high strength artillery, best blocker besides the K'daii in the list, formidable HtH abilities... in short, never leave home without one.

The IG, yes i read you. They suffer from the same problems as normal dwarf warriors with shields. While durable and cost efficient on paper - when was the last time you saw a dwarf unit without greatweapons?! Never, that's when.

Defensive units in WHFB 8th edition are cheap, making up their defensive qualities by numbers, rather than quality. Expensive 'defensive units' just don't work in warhammer today. Shave off two points per model, give them a cool magic banner to enhance them (and by "cool" i mean dragonhide banner quality cool!) and MAYBE we're talking.

In my head i'm working on a IG free list (which is seriously hampered by the fact that i have to include core units...) or at least a minimal IG approach, say 15 armed with greatweapons for the BSB to hide in. Fill up the rest with HG bowmen (2x40, for example) and then load up on demons and artillery.

On the prophet: Yes, way, way too expensive. Did you know that he's the most expensive sorceror in the game with the sole exception of a tooled up vampire lord? Ugh!

The problem with NOT taking him comes in the form of limited points for heroes: Because our hero choices are very expensive, too - we just don't have enough points for a well rounded group of heroes (you only get a castellan, a taur'uk and 2 demonsmiths into the points budget in 3000+ points games).

So, just like you, i'm thinking about a monster-mount for the prophet (and we'll see how he fares against ogre and empire cannons next time i get to play).
5

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I have to disagree on at least one point - the Dreadquake Mortar. When a Demonsmith is nearby giving the mortar rerolls, it is hitting a great deal more often than a Hellcannon is. And generally it isn’t misfiring. Hellcannons are great when they hit but when they don’t they are a disappointment. My Dreadquake at least hits regularly… I’m sure it’s really just preference so your oppinion is at least as valid as mine. But my own personal experience sees definite value in both.

6

aka_mythos:

The question has to become how much more point effective is a Dreadquake mortar and Daemonsmith versus the Hellcannon? It seems to me that the Dreadquake only performs upto it point cost with a daemonsmith, so you’re paying a daemonsmith more points than it is effective… and that doesn’t take into consideration the much bigger footprint of the Dreadquake and the implications on its survival.

Units are either so consistently effective for their point costs or point sinks with little payoff… the points for so many things are so screwy, it really emphasizes the importance of cost effectiveness over other aspect of strategy and army building. This will only lead to all our armies looking the same… and potentially worse claims of cheese will abound.

7

Nicodemus:

So what about the efficacy of a Daemonsmith if he’s within range of more than one warmachine, like the DQM and at least one or two others? Sure he’s kind of locked down to provide his support to the warmachines, but that re-roll is a great boon.

8

aka_mythos:

At best we have a daemonsmith split between 3 or 4 warmachines?-Right… but some proportion of his cost is still in addition to the cost of the warmachine… at best a premium of 25%. So even in the best case scenario of actually getting what a Dreadquake costs, you’re paying the price of a Dreadquake and 25% of a daemonsmith. In an army book that suffers from overpriced units throwing good points after bad isn’t the best idea especially when there are more straightforwardly worthwhile units. With many of our units, to make them effective we aren’t just spending out of the rare, core, and special allowances… we have to spend out of the hero allowance effectively paying a premium on already pricey units. With the hero section so stressed for points as it is with its high cost you really have to weigh where and what you want those heroes to be. Even if you still take a Daemonsmith just by taking a Hellcannon as opposed to a dreadquake you end up with more flexibility as you have artillery that doesn’t need to be anchored to the same vicinity as all the rest of your artillery.

I actually think the dreadquake has something going for it and in the right circumstance is a decent choice, its just I believe the hellcannon is the better choice more often.

9

Groznit Goregut:

Is someone not taking a Daemonsmith with their war machines? I wouldn’t say that you have to calculate it in the cost when compared with the Hellcannon, but you just need to make sure it sits with your other war machines. It means it can’t be a flank guard like the Hellcannon can do.

I’m thinking of going with two units of 55 Hobgoblins for my Core requirement and then going with the upgrade to Infernal guys and enchanted weapons. The 3+ AS and S5 will be viscous. I think giving them the Banner of Slavery will make the Hobgobs stay when battered with spells and shooting. Besides that, I think some support units are good. 3 Bull Centaur could be used great on the side of a Hobgoblin unit. They stay Steadfast for one round and the BC come in to smash someone in the flank.

I think it can be hard to use Wolf Riders, especially when they are competition for Rare points. Goblin wolf riders are just as hard to use these days.

Isn’t the CD magic lore worth the extra points for the lvl 4? Oh, and you can give the lvl 4 the Enchanted Shield? I thought he couldn’t use armor except for blackshard?

10

aka_mythos:

I think it can be hard to use Wolf Riders, especially when they are competition for Rare points.  Goblin wolf riders are just as hard to use these days.

Groznit Goregut
I know there has been mention of wolf riders doing poorly and lone Khans being more effective... while I realize there's been points made about on losing fast cav rules if he's included... but do you think there is a way to optimize a Khan attached to wolf riders?
Is someone not taking a Daemonsmith with their war machines?

Groznit Goregut
With both types of K'daii FB being decent, I wonder if anyone's considered a more minimal war machine army.
11

Baggronor:

I thought he couldn't use armor except for blackshard?
If you have normal armour, you can take magical armour. Its one of the LoA's saving graces that our casters are armoured.
With the hero section so stressed for points as it is with its high cost you really have to weigh where and what you want those heroes to be.
This is the main dilemma imo. The Heroes are all excellent, but you can't get enough of them in. The fact you can't afford to bung in multiple Castellans further limits the IG's capability.
With both types of K'daii FB being decent, I wonder if anyone's considered a more minimal war machine army.
I was wondering if you could do a hard-hitting list with a Lord on Taurus and lots of K'Daai. The problem, as ever, is the Core. You'd have to have some slow-ass IG units just so the BSB/Lv2s could go somewhere. Or just take Hobgobs and have Taur'ruks and Khans, or a Castellan on an Arabyan Carpet. Hmmm. Don't think it would be that great tbh.
Isn't the CD magic lore worth the extra points for the lvl 4?  
The way I see it, the problem isn't availability of good spells, its that he is just a bog-standard wizard lord with some nice but ultimately superfluous traits like 3 Attacks and a random-effect magic weapon (seriously, why?) that you have to pay for. No key spells like Invocation of Nehek or Power of Darkness, and no access to items and abilities that can really boost his influence in the magic phase. He is actually a worse caster than an Empire Wizard Lord; the Empire caster has better arcane items and is much cheaper, and can ride cheaper and safer mounts like a horse or pegasus if he wants to. And he isn't limited to only being able to join overpriced IG.

There is also very little point in the SP being a 'bit' good in combat. In 8th, the only characters you want in combat are those who are either very good at it, have some other unit-enhancing effect or who are very cheap - not expensive wizard lords.
The SP is, as Zhorn says, one of the most expensive casters in the game, however a properly tooled Vampire Lord of similar points can single-handedly dominate the magic phase and is still much scarier in combat (or, with different powers, can be almost as good as the SP in the magic phase and kill the sh*t out of anything that moves in combat).

So yeah, he's overpriced and inefficient. For no good reason. I see a theme developing here ;)

Anyway, moaning aside, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy using a proper Chaos Dwarf army for once and not a counts-as list. Now, just to force it to work...
12

khedyarl:

You know, thinking about it, I kind of wish that the Iron Daemon was a character mount.

Maybe not the best place to state it - but the thought occured to me as I was reading Bagg’s last post about mounts.

13

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Doesn’t everyone take a Prophet anyways?  I have been sticking mine in a little triangle of war machines for his reroll and he does splendidly.

Grimbold Blackhammer

14

Groznit Goregut:

There is also very little point in the SP being a 'bit' good in combat. In 8th, the only characters you want in combat are those who are either very good at it, have some other unit-enhancing effect or who are very cheap - not expensive wizard lords.

Baggronor
I have to disagree here.  I've been running a Lvl 4 Savage Orc Shaman with the Shrunken Head for the 5+ Ward Save on the Savage Orc Big Uns.  He gets into combat all the time.  I help him out with the Fencer's Blades and hope he gets Fists of Gork (which give him +3 attacks and +3 S).  This can make him quite nasty.  He only gets 1 attack to start with.  The Lvl 4 has a great armor save and you can give him a good ward.  He starts with 3 attacks and a decent S.  You don't need to give him much and the guy will be pretty survivable in combat.  Sometimes it's not a matter of him destroying things in combat (though this guy will do well enough against rank and file), but about being close to where his spells are needed and not worried about dying if his bunker gets into combat.

Dark Forged weapon gives him a lot of bonuses in combat. The armor makes him pretty survivable. T5 is very nice on a caster. Give him a 4+ Ward and you should be happy.
15

Baggronor:

I have to disagree here. I've been running a Lvl 4 Savage Orc Shaman with the Shrunken Head for the 5+ Ward Save on the Savage Orc Big Uns. He gets into combat all the time. I help him out with the Fencer's Blades and hope he gets Fists of Gork (which give him +3 attacks and +3 S). This can make him quite nasty. He only gets 1 attack to start with. The Lvl 4 has a great armor save and you can give him a good ward. He starts with 3 attacks and a decent S. You don't need to give him much and the guy will be pretty survivable in combat. Sometimes it's not a matter of him destroying things in combat (though this guy will do well enough against rank and file), but about being close to where his spells are needed and not worried about dying if his bunker gets into combat.

Dark Forged weapon gives him a lot of bonuses in combat. The armor makes him pretty survivable. T5 is very nice on a caster. Give him a 4+ Ward and you should be happy.
The point about the spells is definitely true, I think Lore of Hashut is also short-ranged iirc? I've been using Metal so it hasn't been an issue thus far.
He is alright in melee, yes, (no Fists of Gork for us) but against my regular opponents (or my other armies for that matter) he'd likely be dead quickly in combat. Grave Guard/Tomb Guard/Necro Knights/Ironguts/Bret Lord with HKB/any DE unit with Cauldron buff will drop him, particularly in a protracted combat (which it will be, as IG won't kill much). Annoying, but that's what he'll be up against, and he is M3 and limited for places to hide so they will be coming for him. Hence why I'm considering the flying mount, so he can choose where he fights and can avoid dangerous enemies more easily (sadly not cannonballs). No idea where the points will come from though...
16

Groznit Goregut:

If you really have people gunning for him, you might want to consider the Fencer’s Blades. They are quite helpful defensively. The WS 10 means that unless you have WS 5, you are hitting only on 5+. That can really make a difference. The less hits against you means the less saves you have to make.

Besides that, putting him on the side and having a unit champ or other hero to take challenges can also be used. There’s no “easy fix”, but there are ways to minimize it.

17

nilbog:

Can he take a magic weapon, seeing as he’s already got his darkforged weapon?

Also as a rule of thumb, always put wizards in the corner of a unit, it minimises the effects of miscasts.

Any mileage in putting him on a magic carpet?

18

Groznit Goregut:

Darkforged Weapon is just a regular equipment. There is no rule saying you can’t pick up a magic weapon. In fact, if you use a magic weapon, you can’t use your regular equipment. So, you can get a magic weapon, but lose the Dark Forged Weapon. It goes with the same idea as taking Enchanted Shield with Blackshard armor.

19

Thommy H:

Except an Enchanted Shield doesn’t replace Blackshard armour.

20

nilbog:

Yes, the point being that does he already have a magic weapon, so can’t he take another one instead?