Ender SpiteSworn:
Veshnakar
- they've fixed the problem, job done.
Bitterman
Problem is, they didn´t fix the problem. I think the main gripe is that it was hard as nails to hurt AND that str below 5 couldn´t hurt it. Now, they fixed the part about low str but also made it even harder to kill.
I´m all for a petition about a better fix.
Not that I don´t want to face off against a destroyer or so, but I´m in the planning process of my second Chaos Dwarf army and as it stands right now I´m not even sure I will bother to build a destroyer since it would just feel like playing with a crutch. Even if it is a really nice hobby opportunity.
Sherlocko
I think people need to spend some time playing with the new rules before passing judgetment. A lot of weight is put on the "average" mathhammer calc without looking a the standard deviation in rolling. As Tommy H mentioned above most of the attacks out there are S3 and S4, in protracted comments your going to have good and bad rounds of rolling, likely putting wounds on the thing. Its a big improvement of no chance ever wounding, and each would counts on the K'daai with its flame out and crumbling rules. I've use the destroiyer and quite a few games and still maintain that it dies about 60-80% of the time. This change will only increase that as it is more probably to put wounds on it
Far2Casual:
I don’t understand the argument saying that, because having one chance on 72 to wound it with S3 is infinitely better than none, the problem with the unit is done.
It isn’t. S3 or S4 has about the same impact as hitting a Steam Tank with it. You can try the whole game to take it down with such pitiful attemps, it won’t EVER work. In average you’ll have to pump 864 bow shots to take down the Destroyer. That or not being able to wound it all makes no difference. It’s like fighting a Steam Tank with gnoblar’s sharp stuff. To deal with those things, you need hard hitting CC/shooting. And bingo, they just made it better against that.
In one sentence : they just allowed the scissor to scratch the rock while nerfing paper.
The problem is not that it can be wounded or not by such force or not ; ethereals can not be wounded at all by 90% of the things in the game, it doesn’t make them broken as you can still deal with it, and they don’t hurt that much. The Destroyer is another thing ; I can just move forward 18" turn 1 with my Destroyer without caring about what he’s facing. I’ve got charged by 1600 points of wood elves in the flank and still won the combat by taking 2 wounds. Got flanked charged by 30 White Lions with a BSB in the flank and wiped them all out in 3 rounds of CC taking 2 wounds. Even if it dies, he will ALWAYS take as many points in CC as he’s worth.
Honestly, the Destroyer makes a 120pt Hydra look fair.
rpitts2004:
@veshnakar: BOOOOOO! if you want the rules changed you should house rule it. Im sure your friends will agree to whatever handicap you want to give them.
wait a second, I get it! he's a bot sent over from another forum trying to destroy our best troops! not a believer in Hashut! May Hashut curse you DOWN!
Da Crusha
Have you seen Veshnakars Collection? He has spent more on his Forgeworld dwarfs than I have ever seen.
Thommy H:
I don't understand the argument saying that, because having one chance on 72 to wound it with S3 is infinitely better than none, the problem with the unit is done.
Because 1/72 is a bigger number than 0.
Zhorn:
Honestly, the Destroyer makes a 120pt Hydra look fair.
Far2Casual
To be quite frank - if you're trying to kill the destroyer with elven infantry, you deserve to be slapped around because you're doing it wrong (albeit, there's always the "amulet of light"...).
Different units and monsters ask for different strategies to defeat them, just like you're not going to kill the steamtank with your clanrats you're not going to kill the destroyer with non-buffed infantry.
The destroyer's strength lies in it's ability to frag infantry (well, to frag a lot of stuff, really ;) ). It's weakness lies in the frenzy special rule. To defeat it you use it's weaknesses and not it's strengths.
And, just to come back to what you wrote above - 2 hydras (roughly the price of one destroyer) are going to kill a lot more and are a lot harder to get rid off than a single destroyer. Just sayin'.
Ender SpiteSworn:
In one sentence : they just allowed the scissor to scratch the rock while nerfing paper.
Far2Casual
I think your overstating things quite a bit here. If you have S6 you have a 8% lower chance to woulnd it now. 6% for S7. Its not that big of a change. And with your added 3% chance to wound it with S4 and lower, there are A LOT more of those out there, and they added up. In general your much more likely to take wounds in combat now. Considering Hatered, ASF, and all the other buffs basic infantry can take. Granted its still great, but you shouldnot be using your scissors to keep banging into rocks anyway.
When you look at the trouble it has with the 2+ fire ward models, crumbling, and neglecting its defense vese magic attacks (such as the whole demon army). It is simplly not as insta-win as people like to complain about.
Grimbold Blackhammer:
There are a lot more ST10 attacks out there than there are ST7, ST8, or ST9. Damned cannons…
Grimbold Blackhammer
Bitterman:
S3 or S4 has about the same impact as hitting a Steam Tank with it. You can try the whole game to take it down with such pitiful attemps, it won't EVER work. In average you'll have to pump 864 bow shots to take down the Destroyer. That or not being able to wound it all makes no difference.
Far2Casual
You're very much missing the point I'm afraid. It's not about killing it with S3 hits only. Of course that will never happen, and why should it?
It's about taking a couple of wounds off it with a Bolt Thrower, another one with bowfire, another couple due to burn-out, then one more in combat with spears... as a result of which you win the combat and do another one due to instability... hey presto, it's dead! (Or however many wounds it has, I don't remember off the top of my head, it's immaterial).
Note how the S3 hits only did 2 wounds in this fictitious example, but caused 3 in total (thanks to unstable) and
combined with other attacks and sources of wounds, that's enough to take it down. You may not need to attack it 864 times to do that - 30 bowshots a couple of times and a whole bunch of spear attacks in combat, a little bit of luck and a following wind and that might be
all that is needed. That's completely impossible if S3 and S4 can't wound it - you
only get to rely on other sources, and that upsets people, understandably. Now? Problem solved.
Thommy H:
^ He’s not wrong.
This message was automatically appended because it was too short.
Sherlocko:
That's completely impossible if S3 and S4 can't wound it - you only get to rely on other sources, and that upsets people, understandably. Now? Problem solved.
Bitterman
I guess it´s down to opinion, but a change from impossible to almost impossible sure ain´t problem solved. Just problem moved. In your fictious example the extra wounds caused from the bolt thrower would probably outweigh the "lucky" wounds from bow anyway....
KramDratta:
I guess it´s down to opinion, but a change from impossible to almost impossible sure ain´t problem solved. Just problem moved. In your fictious example the extra wounds caused from the bolt thrower would probably outweigh the "lucky" wounds from bow anyway....
Sherlocko
But almost impossible can become very possible, especially if enough dice are rolled.
Just finished from a test game where the K'Daai faced off a unit of frenzied Corsairs. With the sheer amount of attacks, he was able to knock of a wound almost every round, whereas before the Corsairs wouldn't have.
This way, the opponent is still participating in the combat, even though it unlikely that he'll win. And remember that once the Destroyer loses 3 wounds, you'll have that weird feeling in you stomach every time you roll a Toughness test, hoping its not a 6 & killing your model outright (usually before charging a unit which would have won you the game)
tvandyke:
That's completely impossible if S3 and S4 can't wound it - you only get to rely on other sources, and that upsets people, understandably. Now? Problem solved.
Bitterman
I guess it´s down to opinion, but a change from impossible to almost impossible sure ain´t problem solved. Just problem moved. In your fictious example the extra wounds caused from the bolt thrower would probably outweigh the "lucky" wounds from bow anyway....
Sherlocko
I guess I better not go swimming in the ocean because I'll probably be eaten by a shark. Same with walking in the rain, since I'll probably be struck by lightning. I say that because I must be having incredibly bad luck due to the fact that my almost impossible to kill Destroyer has died in 30% or more of my games.
Discoking:
My destroyer dies in about 70% of my games.
But I am genuinely unlucky.
All my games are for fun, & not to be won.
KramDratta:
I say that because I must be having incredibly bad luck due to the fact that my almost impossible to kill Destroyer has died in 30% or more of my games.
tvandyke
Me too. My worse was a streak of 6 games in a row when it died purely by failing 2 Toughness tests in succession.
Da Crusha:
out of the last 12 games my destroyer has only survived the battle 4 times so,… dies 66% of the time with the old Blazing bodies rule. now I’m sure he will die more often.
Sherlocko:
Just finished from a test game where the K'Daai faced off a unit of frenzied Corsairs. With the sheer amount of attacks, he was able to knock of a wound almost every round, whereas before the Corsairs wouldn't have.
KramDratta
Of course it can happen, I don´t deny it. And against loads of low str attacks with lucky dice this can happen. But your opponent was lucky. If it were first round of combat(hatred) then statistically somewhere around 80 attacks are needed for a single wound. Even if he was in the flank in horde formation he should not be up to that amounts of attacks.
Hashut’s Blessing:
Mine has literally died in every game I’ve used it in 
Good distraction though 
Baggronor:
out of the last 12 games my destroyer has only survived the battle 4 times so,... dies 66% of the time with the old Blazing bodies rule. now I'm sure he will die more often.
So far, mine has survived one game.
Went to Summer Incursion this weekend, 5 CD players there, all finished in variously scattered positions. All but 1 had a Destroyer so it clearly can't be that bad.
I played the horrific 5 war machine LoA army on game 1 Saturday. Squashed it with my VCs :) He would have done much better if he had brought more than 1 fighting unit. He ended up near the bottom somewhere I think, too reliant on artillery.
Da Crusha:
out of the last 12 games my destroyer has only survived the battle 4 times so,... dies 66% of the time with the old Blazing bodies rule. now I'm sure he will die more often.
So far, mine has survived one game.
Went to Summer Incursion this weekend, 5 CD players there, all finished in variously scattered positions. All but 1 had a Destroyer so it clearly can't be that bad.
I played the horrific 5 war machine LoA army on game 1 Saturday. Squashed it with my VCs :) He would have done much better if he had brought more than 1 fighting unit. He ended up near the bottom somewhere I think, too reliant on artillery.
Baggronor
playing heavy artillery is much tougher with the loa list than Ravening Hordes because of losing the earthshaker. before I used to just pummel units over and over again. that was great :D.
rpitts2004:
With the new Blazing Body changes
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/tamurkhanQA.pdf
Any non-Magical attacks must re-roll successful To Wound rolls.
Some people are against the change that FW made instead of having the -1 to wound, because Forgeworld did not realize that the to wound chart changed in 8th edition.
That being said is the new rule much better or much worse?
I think it’s much better… As it has saved my k’daai fireborn and destroyer tons of wounds.
