[Archive] GW or additional hand weapons for BC?

ErikinWest:

This one has always puzzled me. I’m never sure which is the best combination. Now if bull centaurs take additional hand weapons (in a unit of 5) that gives 15 S4 attacks, compared to 10 S6 attacks. However, the 10 S6 attacks will strike last. Now the problem is the BC don’t have a very good armor save (+5) and are easily killed. Not only that, they are a fast unit, and charging something then hitting second kind of seems silly. They also have I3 which isn’t as bad as their dwarven counterparts.

I usually take additional hand weapons, but I think a good remedy is a BC hero with a GW. That way you get 4 S6 attacks at a high WS that can take out characters and monsters.

Let’s say that 5BC with GW charge a unit of 20 orcs (5x4,FCMD). 4A = 2h = 1 wound = .833 dead + 2A (champion) = 1 hit = .66 dead == 1.5 BC dead. BC - 7 A = 4.66 hit = 3.83 orcs die.

That CR would be very close.

Let’s say that 5BC with AHW charge a unit of 20 orcs (5x4,FCMD). 15 A = 10 hit = 5 wound (assuming orcs have a shield and LA) = 3.33 orcs die. Orcs return attacks: .7 A = .35 hit = .175 wound = .146 BC die + 2A = 1 hit = .66 wound = .8 BC dead in total.

Again it would be close, and the next round the Orcs would lose their choppa and probably kill no BC at all. But from this it definitely looks as though the BC with AHW would do better. Because in the next round they would have less casualties and more attacks,

I’m confused help!

Erik

catbarf:

A charging unit always strikes first, even with Great Weapons. Also remember that any troop killed may not strike back- so, if you get 5 kills, most likely that’s none coming back at you- so I’d really recommend the Great Weapons. You will very likely get four or five kills with them, and then take nothing or very little in return.

I’m glad to see you are skilled in Mathhammer. There can never be enough people like you and I. I’m also very amazed that you went and caculated the numbers to try and find unit effectiveness- very few people actually do that, although it is one of the most effective ways of finding what’s good and what isn’t. So, sir, I salute you for bringing math and gaming together to your advantage. Hashut! :slight_smile:

metro_gnome:

catbarf:

^^ very good post. I think I’ll make a card telling you when to use which for my tactics article.

Rootbeer:

Id skip the math and think of purpose. I use the blunders for chewing through rank and file like orcs, and bull centaurs for enemy cav, so they need the great weapon can openers.

catbarf:

That is true. However, you have the option of either, so it pays to know what to use.

ErikinWest:

Actually NM. For some reason (been a couple years since I played) I thought GW attacked last even after a charge. Well actually I now believe that GW are the better choice. Theoretically they both have their different purposes (AHW for hacking skellies for example) but I think the GW are a a better choice as they can not only kill light units, they can also take on the mean stuff.

Cheers,

Erik

torn:

i always thought they always striked last even on charge too. ill have to check that up.

doing the maths is good against a certain opponent, but its never te best way of choosing effectivity for a battle, as if you equipped all your models with 2 hand weapons you would be upset when your only available target was a dragon or something else very tough. then again you would be better with 2 hand weapons against infantry.

catbarf:

If there’s a 90% chance that you’ll encounter infantry and a 10% chance you’ll encounter a dragon, then that choice of hand weapons was more effective.

You can do the math against one opponent. But it’s more accurate to calculate against a number of opponents and combine the results.

ErikinWest:

The thing about GW is that they reduce any AS from +4 and up to nill. So in that way they can take on well armored units. Imagine if thainey charged with AHW agst hw/shield dwarfs; 50% hit, 50% wound, and then only 50% kill. So 15 attacks turns to 1.875 kills. Whereas GW turns that to 50% hit, 83% wound, 83% die meaning 3.46 die.

So they kick butt against AS and high T.

Erik

Lord Darkash:

Quick question to throw into the mix, Do BCs count as cavalry? if so they now only confer a +1S…?

Uzkul Werit:

Bull Centaurs don’t count as cav for the purposes of great weapons, so they still get +2S. They only count as cav for Unit Strength.

metro_gnome:

this is only correct if you use US GT rules…
if you use the rules in the rulebook… imagine that…
they are cavalry and only gain +1S from GWs…

the maths in the post above were calced with these 6th ed (US GT rules)…
strictly speaking they are wrong…

Tallhat:

But then they would gain +1 save instead since they count as mounted

- Tallhat

cornixt:

But they don’t becauae in that section it says they only get the save if they consist of two creatures (eg man and horse)

Uzkul Werit:

The way I read it is that they are exactly like the Centigors. US2 but with all the other rules that infantry have (Parry bonus, +2S Great Weapons).

Tallhat:

We had this discussion over at HoH as well. It makes sense for them to work like Centigors Id say since they are pretty much the same (apart from us being cooler of course :hat )

- Tallhat

metro_gnome:

The way I read it is that they are exactly like the Centigors. US2 but with all the other rules that infantry have (Parry bonus, +2S Great Weapons).

Uzkul Werit
except this is not like centigors at all...
centigors use only HWs as tho on foot... they use other weapons (spears) as tho mounted...
to follow the rules model BC would have to use GW as mounted...

Willmark:

I’ll add to this a further level of complexity. This varies for each unit. I’d say that it is for orcs for example it is better to have an additional attack rather then a higher strength hit. Of course this is all dependent on what you are attacking. So in short the math approach is a good one it doesn’t tell the whole picture. YMMV.

Tallhat:

Sooo basically we are at exactly the same point as we ended up with over at HoH. No clear answer :stuck_out_tongue:

- Tallhat