[Archive] GW Petition

Ogrob:

I’m not buying GW anymore, because I dislike their buisness practise.

For my money, I prefer PP and Warmachine right now. Also expensive, but very nice metal miniatures, and a balanced game.

I will come back to Chaos Dwarves when Mantic Games release their dwarf plastics.

Thommy H:

I don't like the way GW do business at all, but I do want to buy their products.  So I do have a valid reason to complain.

Grimstonefire
You have a valid reason to not buy, certainly, but just because you're not the market that GW specifically caters to doesn't give you the right to feel affronted by their business model. GW are in the business of making money, and the moment that the way they conduct their affairs fails to yield profit, I'm sure they'll change - but right now, it works, and no amount of online whining is going to alter that.

GW do not have a duty to provide the service you think they should. GW do not owe you anything. GW have not signed an implicit contract with veteran gamers to sell their products at the same prices they did years ago.

Can't afford it? Don't feel right paying the prices? No one's making you plonk your money down. Find alternatives - buy from eBay, milk every online discount you can, sculpt your own or use miniatures from other manufacturers. But GW will price their toys at whatever level the market will support and there's nothing inherently distasteful about that.

Grimstonefire:

Aside from the fact that me not being in the market GW specifically caters for does not take away my right to complain either…

Believe it or not, not all businesses are only focused on profit generation, some do actually care about meeting their customers expectations.  GW used to, hence why this is an issue at all.  If they had always been stupendously high prices it wouldn’t be such a huge issue, as the customers would not hope for cheaper prices.

GW uses every opportunity it can to price way above what any other company would, for everything.  It also made the not-so-subtle progression from a producer of toy soldiers to a producer of collectible (expensive) items, and expect their customers to play along without complaining.

Find alternatives - buy from eBay, milk every online discount you can, sculpt your own or use miniatures from other manufacturers.
Doing that already ;), but some things cannot be bought elsewhere and ideally I wouldn’t have to do this.  20% off a high price is still probably 10% more than I feel the things are intrinsically worth.
But GW will price their toys at whatever level the market will support and there’s nothing inherently distasteful about that.


This is an important point.  Just because they can do something doesn’t mean they should, which is what business ethics are all about.

Incidentally, I hardly think that my replies here constitutes serious whining.  If you are happy to pay (or not to pay) for GW things that is fine, but leave those who want to criticise GW’s pricing methods to do so. :wink:

Thommy H:

some do actually care about meeting their customers expectations
Only because it's profitable to do so. If pandering to customer expectations drives up trade, it will be embraced by the company - if it makes no difference, they won't waste time or money on doing it. If the market will continue to tolerate price hikes, there's no good reason to bring them down, is there?

And, sure, you can complain all you want - but to what end? Why waste the bandwidth? You could be doing something much more useful with your time, like designing chocolate tea pots, or starting a company manufacturing inflatable dartboards.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Thommy H, I find it a little unfair that you make comparisons about complaining about price hikes in a method that gives GW a written notice of discontent (which most of us have specified is in conjunction with buying less or from elsewhere, which is what you have repeatedly suggested, yet seem to have ignored us saying) to try and raise an awareness to a an obviously defunct marketing idea (presuming you meant it that way, rather than genuinely meaning create inflatable dartboard and darts that won’t pop it). I think it’s more of a friendly warning that they are pricing many people out of buying their products than a simple complaint, anyhow.

The reason I find it unfair is that you are complaining about people complaining, when this was simply posted to allow people that wished to let GW know their discontent in words as well as actions to do so.

Ultimately, we are aware that you disagree, but there’s no need to keep on saying it over and over and over. We know you think it’s stupid, so why repeat that? (That wasn’t intended to provoke you, simply saying, let’s let the debate die so that this thread can be for what it was intended, please. Note: Not asking as a staff member :wink: )

Thommy H:

Sorry, I thought we were having a discussion here. If the intent is just to advertise the existence of a petition then that’s fine - as you say, you know how I feel now. The only reason I’ve been so confrontational is that, genuinely, I find these kind of things quite childish and naive. I wouldn’t want people I respect to go putting their names to it :wink:

saurus:

There was a petition in Iceland that recently happened which was against the Icelandic government paying back the money it loaned from the UK and Holland. It got 300,000 signatures and ended up with the Icelandic President blocking the parliamentary Bill that was to pay back the money loaned. As a result, the whole project was scrapped, much to the annoyance of the UK and Holland.

While most petitions end up in a rubbish bin, there are some that actually work if enough people get off their lazy backsides and do something about it. Problem is people in the developed world are extremely decadent these days, something that Aldous Huxley warned us about more than fifty years ago.

Thommy H:

Asking a business to drop their prices just because you want it to and the population of a country asking a government they elected not to do something which could detrimentally affect their livelihoods are very, very different things. Petitions can work - but only if they have some basis in reality.

Servius:

well the Icelandic Petition is a horrible example… Thommy nails it square on the fact that one…

The Icelandic Government is Elected by a popular vote… and the Petition showed that the popular opinion in iceland was to not repay the debt and put Iceland into economic distress. The Government was elect to REPRESENT the people and do what they think is correct for the country… A petition is a good way of showing this to their elected represenatives in the government…

GW Board Members are not elected by popular vote… GW is not a government. GW does not specifically have the best intent of its constituants in mind (i.e. Customers) They are a business… their primary goal is to provide a product that hold a demand for as cheap as possible while keeping a quality that keeps or improves said demand, while at the same time gaining as much profit as the market will bear from the sale of said products without diminishing before said demand.

Heres the problem with petitioning a business for a change as customers… especially GW… You Sign Petition… Saying you want to have lower prices… But then go out and buy a box or 2 a month… This tells gw that while you would buy more products if they were lower priced… you still probably spend per month about the same amount… and say you buy 2 core boxes… thats 70 dollars USD. no lets say they drop prices across the board 30%… you now buy 3 core boxes… thats still around 70 USD… so you spend the same amount of money but get more product… costing GW more in the long run… as you just bought 3 of something for a price that earlier you were willing to spend for only 2. See the point… The only valid option to effect a change to a business is to do so with your wallet…

Personally, I see this as a Hobby… you cant buy warhammer with food stamps or welfare food assistance or any other government assistance program… so nobody really has the right to complain about prices… you dont need it to live… its not like you will die of starvation or exposure due to not having plastic men to build… so until then I say… if you have a problem with prices… dont buy them… and dont play. its not like you dont have a choice.

Borador:

I vote with both, I try to boycot GW sets the most I can ( unless they release CD’s :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ) and convert as much as possible ( GO GREENSTUFF! =] ) but you never know what the effect of an online petition could be, right? so let’s just vote, who knows what might happen ^^

saurus:

Never said nor implied the Icelandic petition was in the same league or related in any way to the GW one. I also said that most petitions do end up in a bin. I was stating to Thommy H that petitions are not always a waste of time.

Furthermore to lose respect for someone signing a petition is strange IMO. For me anyway I respect people who stand up for ideals that do not promote violence or human suffering. Even though I may not agree with those ideals, I think it is positive for people to have principals.

I think it is a good thing there is a petition. Sure you can vote with your wallet, and you’re right, it is a vastly better way to get a businesses attention. But a petition about prices is not mutually exclusive with a price boycott. I agree with Borador, both things can be done at the same time, it is not like you have to choose one or the other. They are both legitimate means to an end. Western liberal democracy is great as we have so many non-violent ways to protest against things we are dissatisfied with.

Tarrakk Blackhand:

its not like you will die of starvation or exposure due to not having plastic men to build...

Servius
That's what you think! LOL!

Thommy H:

Furthermore to lose respect for someone signing a petition is strange IMO. For me anyway I respect people who stand up for ideals that do not promote violence or human suffering. Even though I may not agree with those ideals, I think it is positive for people to have principals.
Yes, I respect people who stand up for ideals like that - but that's not what this petition is. It's asking a company to drop their prices for no particular reason. It's inherently flawed as a basic concept. Servius makes the very good point that dropping prices probably wouldn't even encourage sales - most of us have a vague budget for our hobby, and we'll spend what we spend in a month (or whatever) regardless of how many toys that actually gets us. When they put up the price of a squad, I don't think "right, I won't be buying any more of those figures!" I think "Okay, I was going to get two, but I can now only justify one, because they're twice the price". In other words, GW still make the same amount of money off me whatever happens.

cornixt:

If it was more of a pledge not to buy any GW products then it would get more attention. As it is, it is an empty gesture. Everyone wants to get more for less, and they already know that players don’t like the prices. Any GW store manager could tell you that.

As more miniatures manufacturers step up and produce models of roughly the same quality, GW will only maintain control of the rules and not the miniature market for their games. Even that is looking less likely as experienced gamers are producing their own army books that gain acceptance in the community. Will GW even be able to hold on as makers of the core rules?

wallacer:

I’m sure that other petitions like this have popped up before online and don’t seem to have achieved much.

If people really want to make GW change they would be better off investing in GW shares or in writing to people who are already GW shareholders. The company doesn’t really answer to its customers, only to the shareholders.

Thommy H:

Everyone wants to get more for less

cornixt
Yeah, what makes this initiative any more admirable than me writing to my local supermarket to ask for all my shopping to be half price? I'm not saying GW's prices are reasonable, but just begging for something to be cheaper is kind of a non-sentiment. "I want the same stuff, except cheaper!" Yeah, you and everyone else on the planet.

Tarrakk Blackhand:

The Petition would have been better off saying something like “Pledge to stop GW from making metal mini’s as it destroys the enviroment.”. If they did that, it would have been a cause worth fighting for.

Thommy H:

Why are metal figures more harmful to the environment than plastic ones?

Tarrakk Blackhand:

They’re probably not…but that would have made a good petition for someone, I’m sure.

slev:

OK, let us look at the prices people complain about and why. This is usually quite telling.

People complained when the (larger, with all the options included) plastic Balrog replaced the metal Balrog at the same price because plastic is cheaper. But that’s why the larger kit could be sold at the same price. The people who complained saw it not as a model, but as a piece in a game. The new piece does the same thing, and is made of a cheaper material, and so should be cheaper.

People complain that the (larger, more detailed, better quality material) plastic Rhino is expensive at £18, when twenty-odd years ago, they where £10 of two. Twenty years of inflation and real price adjustments would make them £40 for two now, making the newer, better model, 10% cheaper.

Army books are now back up to £15 again, as they where fifteen years ago, despite being the same size, which makes them cheaper once you factor in inflation. People have been complaining about them going up in price for years.

However, a lot of people complaining about the price are comparing them to similar products by companies run elsewhere and in different ways. The GW product includes the services offered by the Hobby Centres. You are paying for this. If you don’t use it then, yes, it is overpriced.

It’s much like when I go to a concert to see the support act, even though I dislike the headliner. The headliner being much more popular, I pay over-the-odds to see the act I came for. I’m not getting as good a value for money as those there for the headliners.

Regardless of even that, this whole escapade shows them that part of their customer base is unhappy. Every time they do something, someone complains.

They cut the background out of the army books due to complaints about it leading to higher costs, and people complain about the lack of background. They put it back in, people complain about the costs.

People complain about them selling games they can no longer justify supporting economically, and then people complain when those games are retired.

People complained about the lack of balance between armies, and the “herohammer” effect. They fix it and people complain about restrictive army lists, boring games and multiple variations on the same army book.

GW’s market is not one homogeneous whole. If it where, they could quite easily keep us all happy. What we have is a broad group of people who each want something different, often in ways that oppose each other.

Also, GW tells people that “Only our paints and glue are safe for your models!”, so people are brainwashed into believing that any other glue doesn’t work and all other paints are unsafe.

Tarrakk Blackhand
I’ve worked for GW’s retail arm, and I know this is nonsense. If it is going on, it isn’t originating from within the company.

I’ve heard many other tales of “GW’s misdeeds” all of which seems to be a step away from reality.