cornixt:
It was only 10 years ago when a box of 16 multipart plastic models was 15 UK pounds, and that was before GW owned the company that made them and could make the moulds for much less. So you can see why older gamers are feeling it is far more expensive now that they cost more than 3 times as much, significantly more than inflation. Even the books have multiplied by a similar amount.
Willmark:
Y'know, I always find the price-moaning a bit silly and of late its actually started to irritate me. Sure, they charge a lot for their stuff - so don't buy it if you don't think its worth it. I don't take it personally when something is more expensive than I am willing to or can pay, and if I like something a lot I will pay a lot to get it. I refuse to believe people are so poor they can't afford a £35 boxed set once every few months. I can and I live in London, where absolutely everything is overpriced. So presumably people feel that the minis should be cheaper for some reason?Not sure who this is directed at but for my own part I'm a free market capitalism as they come. If people see the value in something (whatever it may be) its no business of my own how they spend their dosh. At the same time I will criticize bone headed moves when I see them. And in fact back to capitalism I'm exercising my ultimate right to withhold purchases.
Baggronor
I don't run Kickstarters or anything yet Titan Wargames is very much in profit with next to no start-up costs or overheads.And you are being rightly rewarded for great minis at reasonable prices? Yes? Where people draw the line is what is reasonable and what is great.
Baggronor
Many of GW's competitors actually have similar prices or higher anyway but somehow don't seem to get the same flak.Probably not germane if one doesn't buy any minis other then GW's, at least for the sake of argument. I will say teh fact that GW doesnt make minis like my old school ones is a good thing because I can off load my old minis for $.
Baggronor
If I was in the market for CDs I would skip the companies and go for smaller studio/houses run by hobbists... like yours :) I reward companies that I choose to support. I don't choose to support GW so they don't get my dosh.I could be wrong but with ever increasing overhead and their money bring made on the figures not the rules? Imagine when an average home user can recast their minis in a 3-d printer of sufficient capability and at low cost...
Willmark
Baggronor
Baggronor:
And you are being rightly rewarded for great minis at reasonable prices? Yes? Where people draw the line is what is reasonable and what is great.When I compare what I charge to the 'going rate' ie GW plastics, its a fine margin (Witch Elves not withstanding ;)). I have seen people commenting that the price of my stuff is still 'an issue' for them though, so I think people complain about price no matter what.
Next Up- IP, after being on the receiving end of GW's IP police... and you where you clearly had a case? I take a dim view of said company. I know the ins and outs of why the go after IP, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. On top of that overzealous would be charitable in describing the GW IP cops. Hence one reason why I don't sacrifice my blood, sweat, toil and tears on working for GW... for free.I take the view that GW Legal is not GW Studio, if only for my own sanity. I work for a very large corporation in my day job, large enough to crush GW like a bug in fact, and we sue our competitors tit for tat all the time - its cringe-worthy for the average employees like me and the same must be true at GW. Those lawyers need to justify their existence somehow. Moves like the recent stab at BoW just seem absurd though.
Admiral:
The advantages of metal casting versus plastic moulding are well known. Aside from economic trends I think there are two reasons why there are complaints about prices, not least for new plastic kits. They’ve both got to do with customer expectations.
The first is GW’s near monopoly on the market. There are usually few if any competitors present in brick and mortar stores from my experience. Warhammer is pretty much synonymous with non-historical wargaming here in Sweden. People become accustomed to buy from GW, people mostly like their products, including background fiction. As such, customers want to buy the products from GW. Call it drug addiction if you will. Constant price hikes may be a cure. Near market monopoly also allows GW to hold prices “artificially” high at will, which becomes apparent when one compares the prices of the latest releases with historical wargaming miniatures, and maybe also Mantic. Small companies like Raging Heroes also have high prices, but people generally expects the largest company on the market to deliver cheaper alternatives than niche companies.
Reason number two have nothing to do with the actual costs of acquiring plastic moulding equipment or the advantages of plastic over metal. #2 is simply that plastic miniatures have always been cheaper for the customer than metal ones, probably because the investment in plastic kits usually have repaid itself many times over in high sales. Some old plastic kits such as RTB01 Marines, Squats and WHFB skeletons were also sold in boxes of 36 for prices which would seem surprisingly low with modern eyes, even when one adjusts for inflation. Historical 28mm plastic miniatures are still sold for very roughly a similar price per model as the old 36-miniature boxes were, because the historical miniature market is not dominated by a monopoly company.
We’re seeing simple market mechanics at work here, with lots of veterans offloading their peripheral armies from their collections, many would-be newcomers passively kept out thanks to high prices (see Hobbit sales compared to Lotr ones). The amount of hobbyists who buy from alternative sources have increased steadily and continues to do so, and upcoming companies like Mantic and AoW are able to conquer tiny market shares thanks to lower prices or better quality. Objectively, it seem that GW indirectly prepares the scene for larger competitors than exists at present. Part of this process is moaning and wailing over prices amongst GW’s customers.
Besides, Baggronor, I’ve always found your metal miniatures to be cheap since I’m accustomed to GW metal prices. It’s good value for the money, too.
Kanist:
Yes and no. Interesting topic because of something that just happened to me.
I find it helps to have an entertainment budget, once that is set, you know exactly where you stand in terms of buying miniatures. Currently I can afford 1-2 new models per month, but only one if I want to retain a social life. Of course ebay can provide more models but we’re talking GW pricing. The other day however, the website for GW got locked onto Australian prices, and I pretty much freaked out because I didn’t notice. I saw a 40%-70% mark-up on basically everything, and at THAT point the hobby became un-affordable. What that tells me, is they’re not at the price point yet, but they’re close, and if you’re working for minimum wage, at least here in the states, with other bills to pay, it’s probably already at that point.
The other problem I see is getting new customers. I mean if you’re a kid, and not a rich kid, I’d think the hobby is right out. If you’re under 16, again here in the states, you have to rely on your parents generosity for income, and some models are going to be far out of reach. Add to the fact that one model can cost as much or more than the new Grand Theft Auto V, it’ll be hard for kids and newcomers alike to justify paying these prices, because they don’t see the value yet. Add to that fact you have to make several of these purchases before you can even play a game, and I think that add’s for more of a deterrent. Being thrifty you can probably field an unoptimal army you probably won’t enjoy for $300 minimum. The price of a PS3. Which will seem like a much better investment to most people.
So that’s what I think. Warhammer is a hobby. An expensive hobby. It’s slowly (or quickly depending on your perception) becoming too expensive. And it’s competing with cheaper, more instantly gratifying hobbies.
To put it into perspective one more time, I built a gaming PC for my girlfriend. My army costs more than that did. GW is lucky I’m willing to throw a good chunk of my expendable income their way, this is due in part to steam and cheap game sales, because the more I write I’m talking myself out of the hobby. Haha!
Fuggit Khan:
Yes, GW stuff is ridiculously overpriced…especially their resin stuff.
But I have found in life that all of my interests/bad habits cost too much, so I’ve just resigned myself to it.
As my wife says, at least it keeps me off the streets…
Willmark:
Indeed, people want a Ferrari while paying for a yugo. ;)And you are being rightly rewarded for great minis at reasonable prices? Yes? Where people draw the line is what is reasonable and what is great.When I compare what I charge to the 'going rate' ie GW plastics, its a fine margin (Witch Elves not withstanding ;)). I have seen people commenting that the price of my stuff is still 'an issue' for them though, so I think people complain about price no matter what.
Baggronor
Next Up- IP, after being on the receiving end of GW's IP police... and you where you clearly had a case? I take a dim view of said company. I know the ins and outs of why the go after IP, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. On top of that overzealous would be charitable in describing the GW IP cops. Hence one reason why I don't sacrifice my blood, sweat, toil and tears on working for GW... for free.
willmark
I take the view that GW Legal is not GW Studio, if only for my own sanity. I work for a very large corporation in my day job, large enough to crush GW like a bug in fact, and we sue our competitors tit for tat all the time - its cringe-worthy for the average employees like me and the same must be true at GW. Those lawyers need to justify their existence somehow. Moves like the recent stab at BoW just seem absurd though.IP is such a mess that it's impossible I think for mere mortals to navigate it without breaking some law.
Baggronor
Xander:
I don’t really get angry at GW for their prices, I just get sad.
I’d love to have a box of shadow warriors or witch elves to mine for bits, but they just cost too much.
Likewise I wanted Forsaken for bits, but I had to wait to get them as a gift as I just didn’t want to pay that price.
On top of that, the current edition of warhammer requires simply too many models! I could probably buy witch elves at 70 bucks for 10, if that’s all that was needed for a unit. But you need like 30 or 40, which means 210 to 280 dollars, plus Canadian taxes! Youch!
Dark Eldar Wyches are 35 bucks for 10! And that’s all you need!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900152a
Easily as excellent as the witches, half the price. This is part of the problem, inconsistent prices. I forsee many dark elf players supplementing their forces with dark eldar.
Eg:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440235a&prodId=prod900153a
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1230009a
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440233a&prodId=prod900151a
Man, still love the dark elf/elder aesthetic… Decent prices in the 40k lineup.
Averrucus:
word.
it’s sad: DE corsairs have the right cost for what they are, why not price everything around that??
also, it’s the metal-to-plastic-SAMEPRICE nonsense that’s insulting: the late Black Guard was amazing, pricy? yeah, but it was a unit with astonishing look and loads of charisma: the meanest and angriest elves! 30 bucks 10? oh well, with 60 I have maxed a beautiful RARE unit, let’s rock! same for the witches,
but now??
a plastic double kit and it (will) costs THE SAME if not more??? WTH???
Willmark:
The reality is their prices have to cover a helluva lot of overhead. That in and of itself is probably not the only reason but part of it
Add in a meh economic climate? Stretching on 5 years. GW was isolated from the economic realities of the world for years but it’s reaching into their world as well. And as a aside: I’m not sure I would steer my kids towards the hobby…
Chico:
The only things I tend to buy from GW are paints/spray/brushes and the odd pack of bases. And even then my last lot of paints bought were from Game Colour, so I’m guessing sooner or later i won’t even buy those from GW.
I still game and buy figures all the time, its either from Ebay or Forums though, so no need to give GW games just the spending on new items.
zobo1942:
The reality is their prices have to cover a helluva lot of overhead. That in and of itself is probably not the only reason but part of itI would like my kids to eventually get into playing miniature games, but the 'buy in' for Warhammer is just too high. I hope to steer them into a 'skirmish'-sized alternative.
Add in a meh economic climate? Stretching on 5 years. GW was isolated from the economic realities of the world for years but it's reaching into their world as well. And as a aside: I'm not sure I would steer my kids towards the hobby...
Willmark
tjub:
A real Hobby aint cheap! If you dont like GW then dont buy… Or, play Blood Bowl! 
Grimstonefire:
Outside of 3 armies, which I will just be expanding I’m resigned to the fact I will only ever have very small collections of random models now. Which is sad in one way, but then I have far too many models to paint anyway… So I’m not really that bothered generally about increases except in my 3 armies.
Admiral:
Skirmish games and cheaper alternative producers might be the way to go if your children are interested in the hobby. Also, E-bay cheapos and old armies which you can lend or gift them with could play a large part towards cutting down on their hobby spending.
Honeym123:
I thought I would give my thoughts as well:
I think GW is hopelessly overpriced. For an example 10 Skeletons for about 18 pound? Come on, thats not fair, when you need like 60 at least! I realize that there are costs with producing theese things, but I can’t imagine that the prices coresponds with their costs. Here is where I am at. I only buy figures used, meaning 0 dollars for the GW. However If I could buy say 20 skeletons for 15-20 pounds I would defently be more inclined to go down to my local store, than have to scower the internet.
Then again, I do have a large CD collection, which is just as expensive as buying new figures at GW. All a quistion of valuing.
Willmark:
Value is one thing.
Going up three times the rate of inflation is another thing entirely. While it’s true that in any market prices are what the market will bear. The question is are they past that point
I say they are. YMMV.
wallacer:
There are so many alternative miniatures being produced by other companies that a lot of armies can be mostly done using non-GW figures. If GW keeps raising their prices all they’re doing is forcing customers into their competitor’s arms.
All I really buy from GW now are rules, army books, paint and the occasional miniature I want to add to my collection.
AGPO:
Late to the party I know but I was in the middle of my dissertation when this thread was originally going. Anyway here’s my 10c worth:
People’s income varies hugely, and every time GW puts up its prices we get a thread like this because some people have hit that price point. Although it’s perfectly sensible to say ïf you don’t like the price don’t buy it" it is always sad to have to give up something you’ve invested so much time and energy into. I have hit this point a couple of times in the past, either through falling income or increased outgoings. At times even alternatives like ebay have been too much for me.
Everyone on the forums goes on about price elasticity with GW but the big issue is opportunity cost. When I was a kid I had much less disposable income than I do now, but there were also far fewer demands on it. It was minis, video games or sweets, and minis won every time. As I grew up I discovered (in no particular order) girls, beer and travel and all of a sudden there were other demands on my wallet such as eating, transport and somewhere warm to sleep. GW stuff is far harder to justify when a box of Witch Elves translates into six hours of a crappy bar job or two weeks food bills.
The other issue I have is with rules creep. Warhammer was initially concievedas a rules set to help shift more minis, and that’s okay in my book because I wouldn’t have discovered this hobby if GW hadn’t expanded the way it did in the eighties and nineties. However, there’s been a shift in emphasis from trying to produce a great game so that people will want the miniatures, to shaping the rules to improve sales. I like the hoard mechanic in 8th ed and think it’s a good addition, but it’s been accompanied by a decision to more than double the price of a plastic unit. This has not only put me off starting new armies, but it’s also led em to fall out of gaming. Compare the cost of Perry Miniatures Wars of the Roses plastics to Empire State Troops. In contrast to GW historical manufacturers like Perry and Warlord have started producing big cheap boxes of core troops for people to build a core collection much more affordably than they ever could before. The unit price of historicals is plummeting compared to GW. Consequently when I do buy new I now buy mainly historical.
Another important principle to apply to GW products is diminishing returns. My first GW army was the best value for money I ever got for anything. I gamed with it for over a decade, spent hours of fun painting and modelling all my units and my initial outlay/hours of use was tiny. Nowadays however if I start a new army what am I getting? I already have huge collections for each of GW’s core systems, so a new army would have to play significantly differently for me to get anythign new out of it. Likewise I have a huge pile of unpainted plastic like most gamers, and plenty that needs repainting to bring it to my current standards. Laid against that is the “ooh shiny!” syndrome most hobbyists including myself seem to suffer from. I recently got back into historical gaming and there are plenty of different rules sets, eras and scales to offer me something completely different every time I start a new project.
The major thing in GW’s favour is its market dominance which stems from its high street presence. Whenever I move to a new area I may struggle to find anyone who plays blackpowder or force on force but I’m pretty much guaranteed a game of 40K. Likewise for new gamers the only way into historical or other scifi/fantasy systems is through a friend, whilst any kid can walk past a hobby centre and want the shiny minis. For me, I stick with GW mostly because I love their settings and their minis are still the best out there IMO. Some other producers have them for quality, like AoW, whilst others have them for price, like Mantic. When a fantasy producer gets both of these right I’ll jump ship and I doubt I’ll be the only one.
Thorne:
When you look at the face of it a box of 10 cadians costs £1.68 to put in a box before shipping it to the store or the customer seams GW have an over inflated opinion of their products. I understand that yes they need to pay the rent on their stores but frankly I don’t want to pay their rent. I’d happily but many other producers of miniatures. Mantic’s / perry / warlord / wargames factory do a great range of plastics. Nameless others do kick ass models. I’d be happy to keep up my near 10 year annex from buying GW products and either sculpt my own miniatures or support others in their endeavours.