[Archive] Help Against Daemons

Duke Lisle:

So I fought a 2500 point Daemon list with my LOA last night. I brought the following:

Lord on Bale Taurus. (Enchanted shield, dark mace) Lore of Hashut
2 Daemonsmiths (Chalice, dispel scroll) Lore of Fire for both, first one is level 2.
1 Castellan battle standard bearer (razor standard- a bad choice)
Iron Daemon
Magma Cannon
Deathshrieker
23 Infernal guard (Castellan and 1 Daemonsmith go in this block) handweapons and shields
10 IG with fireglaives
20 hobgoblins w/handweapons and shields
1 K’daai Destroyer.


He brought (more or less)
1 Keeper of Secrets
20 pink horrors
10 blue horrors
10 bloodcrushers of Khorne
1 herald of Tzeentch
20 bloodletters of Khorne.
1 khorne hero on a chariot.
1 skull cannon of khorne.


So how are Chaos Dwarfs supposed to compete with Daemons? His Bloodcrushers got on my Lord and ended him with killing blow. How do I get a good ward save up on him? His whole army is 5+ ward saves!

the lore of Tzeentch has Infernal Gateway which ended up dropping (multiple times) 8 to 10 strength 11! hits on my Infernal Guard block.This same spell put an end to my Iron Daemon. The chalice didn’t really stop up his magic phase.


Literally everything in his army has magical attacks, so there go my K’Daai and my Bale Taurus (don’t have to reroll to wound if magical attacks).

Luckily I put some massive hurt on his bloodcrushers with my Lore of Hashut before my Lord died, and my Magma Cannon/Death Shrieker really took out that chariot and the pink and blue horrors, but still. It was a massacre.

Any advice/opinions on how to beat the new Daemons and their army book is much appreciated!

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I’ll confine my advice to this specific build because I just don’t have enough experience with the new demon’s book to be useful.

Tactical thought - your opponent will advance to you with moderate shooting ability but a strong magic phase

The Chaos Dwarf List - very character-heavy! Unless you were somehow casting all your spells every turn, you could easily trim that down to a pair of wizards - the dispel scroll on your Sorcerer-Prophet and the Chalice on your hero. You also had no Ward Save on your Lord? For that much investment, he shouldn’t be walking out the door with less than a 5+ as a BARE MINIMUM. I also never give my BSB a magical banner. He’s far more valuable making the unit Stubborn. Give the banner to the unit instead. And lastly, has anyone ever really found 10 IG with Fireglaives have done anything productive? I know I haven’t.

The Battle - the Keeper of Secrets is brutal and will smash pretty much your whole army if you let it. A few cannonade shots will scare the pants off it though. And The Lore of Hashut he will not like at all. Both Ashstorm and Flames would wreck him. The K’daii Destroyer is a bit of a mixed bag against Demons - they all have magical attacks. But he will wreck a lot of those units. Put on a flank he’ll rip through any of those units except the Keeper while helping to mitigate the return attacks. I know we’re all used to just throwing him forwards and let him do his thing but no against this army. And ten Bloodcrushers is scary. With no redirectors, that unit will singlehandedly ruin your whole army. Ouch.

Duke Lisle:

Thanks for the advice Grimbold! Yes I fully agree: I need to put up a ward save on my lord. I was thinking Mask of the Furnace and a Dawnstone for better protection. As well I thought I’d switch out the banner for a banner of swiftness and give it to the unit of IG for a nasty surprise.

I could lose the 20 hobgobbers and fill out my fireglaives up to 20 for two ranks of 10? I think that might be more effective.

I did indeed attempt to shoot the Keeper and I did put the hurt on him with my Deathshrieker but he had that daemonic blessing wherein he would heal a wound each time he inflicted a wound in close combat; which meant he would saunter through each of my units and when he was opened up for shooting he had regained some amount of health.

I do want to try and throw out the lore of Hashut onto the Keeper next time we meet.

Jossy:

Basically you need more Deathshrieker rockets. These things are amazing vs Daemons as 95% of them are t3. Pie plates reduce the units to numbers you can handle which are easily finished off by infantry/K’daai/Bale Taurus. In addition, with 2 Daemonsmith sorcerers, they are incredibly accurate. They also have the st8 shot on them. A Greater Daemon should never survive long enough to reach your battleline with two of these.

You also don’t need a magic weapon on your lord, he already has a good one, and you have already paid for it. Equip him with the talisman of preservation for a 4+ ward.

The thing about Daemons is, although they all have a 5+ ward, who cares. Thats all they have. Most are t3 so st3 is a very efficient way of dealing with them, as you are not paying unnecessary points for save modifiers. Yes hobgoblins with bows are good here, as are blocks of 40+ hobgoblins with additional hand weapons.

Your BSB should be equiped with magic items for defence, and to boost the unit. your unit itself can take a magic banner so it is a waste putting it on the BSB.

your list isnt to bad, it just needs some refining IMO. Daemons are an easy matchup for Chaos Dwarfs as long as you know how to handle them. 9/10’s of the game is about he movement and deployment of your troops, the other 1/10th is abotu knowing your enemy

gIL^:

Dive that Hellbound Iron Daemon into the Greater Daemon and forget it for the entire game. and smash the rest of it. Specially those horrors.

Irons Daemons are designed to die up something bigger than it and pretty effect also.

Baggronor:

but he had that daemonic blessing wherein he would heal a wound each time he inflicted a wound in close combat
It's once per turn now, not per every wound he causes.

You're spending waaaay too many points on characters, get some more troops in there.

If you want to run the Lv4 on Taurus, give him the Other Trickster's Shard and hunt down the Horror blocks. He should never ever engage anything with Killing Blow. But really, he isn't worth the points in general.

Get another Magma Cannon and an Iron Daemon. The Cannonades murder monsters and monstrous cav and Magma Cannons are always good.

Some Khans on Wolves to redirect would also be good.

The BSB should have protective equipment. If you want the Razor Standard, put it on the Infernal Guard, though I doubt it's worth it, certainly not in this match-up.

2 Lv1 Daemonsmiths, one on Metal, one on Fire serve all the magic needs imo. The Prophet is so grotesquely overpriced, I can never fit him in these days.

ViLe:

just for a better understanding… But i play deamons too and his list makes not much sense to me. Does he really play a Keeper of Secrets (the Slaanesh one) or was it a Lord of Change (the Tzeentch one) ?

brother_cov:


So I fought a 2500 point Daemon list with my LOA last night. I brought the following:

Lord on Bale Taurus. (Enchanted shield, dark mace) Lore of Hashut
2 Daemonsmiths (Chalice, dispel scroll) Lore of Fire for both, first one is level 2.
1 Castellan battle standard bearer (razor standard- a bad choice)
Iron Daemon
Magma Cannon
Deathshrieker
23 Infernal guard (Castellan and 1 Daemonsmith go in this block) handweapons and shields
10 IG with fireglaives
20 hobgoblins w/handweapons and shields
1 K'daai Destroyer.


He brought (more or less)
1 Keeper of Secrets
20 pink horrors
10 blue horrors
10 bloodcrushers of Khorne
1 herald of Tzeentch
20 bloodletters of Khorne.
1 khorne hero on a chariot.
1 skull cannon of khorne.


So how are Chaos Dwarfs supposed to compete with Daemons? His Bloodcrushers got on my Lord and ended him with killing blow. How do I get a good ward save up on him? His whole army is 5+ ward saves!

the lore of Tzeentch has Infernal Gateway which ended up dropping (multiple times) 8 to 10 strength 11! hits on my Infernal Guard block.This same spell put an end to my Iron Daemon. The chalice didn't really stop up his magic phase.


Literally everything in his army has magical attacks, so there go my K'Daai and my Bale Taurus (don't have to reroll to wound if magical attacks).

Luckily I put some massive hurt on his bloodcrushers with my Lore of Hashut before my Lord died, and my Magma Cannon/Death Shrieker really took out that chariot and the pink and blue horrors, but still. It was a massacre.

Any advice/opinions on how to beat the new Daemons and their army book is much appreciated!


Duke Lisle
I played a game at the weekend with similar lists (no khorne though).

Bale Taurus left flank - took out screamers + Slannesh chariot then tied up Keeper and kept it out of game for 2 turns.

Destroyer right flank - took out fiends and soulgrinder before dieing to big bugs.

Iron Daemon held centre.

Win for Chaos Dwarves!!

But you gotta have a ward on the prophet...absolute given!