[Archive] Henry the V, 'nuff said

Archive [Archive] Off-Topic Discussion
21

Willmark:

So in general, seems to have been pretty influential for France, potentially in opposition to American interest in political domination of post-war Europe?  Fair enough, although I'm not sure that "opposition to US" is the same thing as "nothing of substance"

Khan!
First off Dude... Wiki!? ;)

DeGaulle set the stage for the antagonism between France and the US not the other way around.

- Fighting Vichy France? With what? His words. Pettain was a sad old man and a puppet. It was shame made by the Germans. The US simultaneous armed the entire world (even Stalin was impressed by American industrial production). What did we get in return? France removing themselves from NATO in 1966.
- insistent on reworking D-Day plans according to Eisenhower, as if he knew better.
- Refusing to broadcast to the French people in code about the invasion and what he did could have ruined everything.
- Marshal Plan lifted not only France but nearly the rest of western Europe out of ruin... our thanks from France....
- French Indo-China War- He REALLY soured on US for or refusal to help leading to Dien Bien Phu. Then we rather foolishly picked up their mess and tried to right it to our detriment. We can sure should the blame as far back as WWII for supporting Ho Chi Min against the Japanesse.
- The a fore mentioned Quebec debacle.
- Algeria- Yeah he view that one as a "victory".
- Don't even get me started on the European Union and why France is such a big proponent of it. I'd argue that France has little real interest in promoting say Denmark's economy per say (by way of example); they are interested however in having a disproportional say in world affairs that they Union allows them.
- Stymieing of the UK at various points in the 1960s an 1970s for no other reason they they are our close allies.

Then the one to top it all:
"You may be sure that the Americans will commit all the stupidities they can think of, plus some that are beyond imagination."
Charles de Gaulle

Serious WTF???? Are you kidding me????

Note this isn't about their people this is about their lame ass government. Our current one has it share of problems, we make mistakes as well, But I haven't seen us systematically trying to stymie France at every turn on the world stage for the last 60 years.

And on top of all this. How the hell did they get a permanent seat on the security council of the UN. As if F'ing up and basically giving the Germans every reason to start WWII wasn't enough.

Lest anyone thing this is simple French bashing, look at it from this way. The US has very little in the way in familial ties to France unlike almost every other country in Europe. We have large populations that feel a kinship and have a connection with their country of origin. By and large we don't identify with the culture or the language, outside of somewhat small enclaves here.

In short De Gaulle was entirely antagonistic post ware due to the fact that for the longest time we would not recognize him as the leader of France in WWII. In short Degaulle should have let it go I mean seriously WTF.
22

Kera foehunter:

well as you stated well !! it your point of view history is alway told by the victor!!

good or bad ! i think if you look around the french change the U s !!in its architectal

the peforming art and gave this country culture!! just look at the winery in your state willmart!! even thow the french are now longer a great war power!!!

they are still a great power in the world!! you live in an part of a country that called new england!!!i wonder if this could give you your views

i live in the indian terriory where french and indian lived in for years The french where the fist contact of euro people !!! maybe this gives me my views

23

Hashut’s Blessing:

I thought the Italians found it first? I must’ve been wrong, lol :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, I’d have said it was more the English that have provided the base culture for the performing arts (in theatre and muscials at least), for most of it at least.

24

Khan!:

Incidentally, wikipedia is something like half a percentage point less accurate than the Encyclopedia Brittanica… But it’s true that I didn’t have the time or inclination to engage academic sources.

Perhaps I should rephrase my observations:  I’m not suggesting that De Gualle was good or great or positive in general, but I think it’s clear that his influence is palpable.  Moreover, and I think this reflects itself in Willmark’s assertions, I would argue that just because a leader has an ego and opposes the United States for his own or for his vision of his own country’s interests, doesn’t make said leader any better or worse or more or less influential than anyone else.  So like, he may very well have been a thorn in the side of American foreign policy, but it sounds like it’s the fact that he was successful in doing so makes him the ‘bad guy’ - nationalism aside, I’m not sure that’s really a fair statement to make ie "bad according to whom?"

I agree that he was looking out for number one, and that he was kind of a jackass, but again, this doesn’t lessen his importance to the political future of France.  France is a power in the EU and internationally, it seems, yes thanks to the Marshall plan no question about that, but also because of nuclear armament and the economic self-determination asserted by De Gaulle and the Gaullists.  One may disagree with policies and ideology and attitude, but to deny relevancy doesn’t seem fair or to be supported by the evidence.

THAT SAID, I’m definitely not sure that I like De Gaulle - certainly I don’t know enough about everything he is responsible for, so I have to reserve judgment on that front.  Were I to spend more time learning more about the history I might very well agree with Willmark that De Gaulle (and France international relations wise) ain’t cool, but nevertheless I would disagree with the assertion that De Gaulle was insignificant.

25

snowblizz:

I thought the Italians found it first? I must've been wrong, lol :P

Also, I'd have said it was more the English that have provided the base culture for the performing arts (in theatre and muscials at least), for most of it at least.

Hashut's Blessing
If we are talking about finding the new world, the Vikings were there first, so there! :P

I think you'll find yourself very much incorrect in that England would be the base for performing arts. Feel as you like fact is France has been the de facto centre for arts for centuries. Most Europeans nations have imported "culture" from France, even when said "culture" might not have originated there. I'm not an expert but I think that only since romanticism and nationalism gained hold has countries started looking more to themselves rather than what fashion in Paris was (and in some areas they still do).

@Willmark
It is true that France has very much profiled itself as being in opposition to the USA but I question if this isn't more because the US has supplanted the Uk more than anything else. Being in opposition means France is at least a bit as great as the US is which would sort of explain the behaviour.
Imagine France as an aged supermodel who refuses to admit that time might have caught up with her (*cough*Janice Dickenson*cough*) facelifts and make-up try to keep up the charade. USA is the young chick who keeps calling her old and fat...
Of course here's some news for america.. you are not god, nor Jesus, the rest of the world doesn't have to bow down in awe. Get over yourselves already, you don't fart rainbows it smells just like the rest of us. If someone disagrees with your ideas and position they just might have a point. It isn't just being arrogant. Which frankly put both sides of the matter have in spades. France looks at her centuries (if not almost a millennia) of history, the USA at their current status and think "gee, we are like totally the best ever".
26

Kera foehunter:

that too funny!!! the new world where that ??? there was nothing new about north america there been people here since time begun!! and even the viking tell of people living here to how do you think they got the strenth to get back to tell there colorful storys!!

27

Willmark:

Of course here's some news for america.. you are not god, nor Jesus, the rest of the world doesn't have to bow down in awe. Get over yourselves already, you don't fart rainbows it smells just like the rest of us. If someone disagrees with your ideas and position they just might have a point. It isn't just being arrogant. Which frankly put both sides of the matter have in spades. France looks at her centuries (if not almost a millennia) of history, the USA at their current status and think "gee, we are like totally the best ever".

snowblizz
I have no issue with what you said on one level.

However I am not on of these Americans that think we are always right, that we are infallible, etc... Thats how your media has told you that is what ALL Americans believei. We screw up and do it often, we make mistakes quite often, we have our own set of issues, no one who looks at the situation objectively will deny that. Not everyone has the same feelings about their country. It would be no different then if I blamed the people of France for their government, but yet the disastrous Bush administration apparently speaks for all Americans. He barely won the first time and the vote was a lot closer in 2004 then many people realize in terms of popular vote. News flash I didn't vote for him either time.

Again my main point is simply that we are not seeking to block France's objectives on the worlds stage for the last 60 years. France does it apparently for no other reason except they can on the surface. Its as if we take a stance on something and France will automatically take the other side out of some need to spite us.

Arrogance? if we are going to go that route...what exactly has France done in the last 100 years that has earned them the right to dictate to the world? For all of our real and perceived flaws and foibles we at least do something, is that always the best action? Probably not. Sitting around naively wishing for peace? Yeah that will work out there France.
28

Hashut’s Blessing:

Technically, Kera is right :wink: The native Americans, such as the the Skraelings and many others (and probably others before THOSE) knew of it first :wink:

Secondly, it wasn’t Vikings that found it. It was the Norse. Vikings (in the language the were Vikingr), was the name of the Norse that were sea raiders (which weren;t as violent as everything makes them out to be. Not to say they were less violent than other, but the whole society certainly was. They had better equal rights than we do today :wink: ).

As to France being the stem of America’s performing arts, I did specify in the field of drama and theatre that England is a more likely candidate. Which can be seen by the likes of Hollywood, Broadway and typical proscenium arch stage-productions as well as a lot of contemporary work which is overtly and distinctly similar to that of English work. Which isn;t to say we’ve not been influenced by America, but it’s no more so than we’ve been influence by an others. I study drama and theatre studies and am in my 6th year of doing so, so hopefully I know what I’m on about :wink:

See, I agree with what both of you have said on the arrogance and views of America. As a whole, it does a lot of things that are ridiculous, but individually, I give each person their own chance and they always seem to prove to be entirely unlike the whole. It’s strange that the sum parts are so completely different to the whole sum. Hope I made what i was trying to say clear…

29

snowblizz:

Technically, Kera is right ;) The native Americans, such as the the Skraelings and many others (and probably others before THOSE) knew of it first ;)

Hashut's Blessing
Undoubtedly, and how did that work out for them then?
They shouldn't have kept that discovery to themselves, it just don't count that way.
BTW Don Rosa has written a very good Donald Duck adventure on the subject.
Secondly, it wasn't Vikings that found it. It was the Norse. Vikings (in the language the were Vikingr), was the name of the Norse that were sea raiders (which weren;t as violent as everything makes them out to be. Not to say they were less violent than other, but the whole society certainly was. They had better equal rights than we do today ;) ).

Hashut's Blessing
I used Vikings as a term I expected to be known. FWIW Vikings and Norse are pretty much interchangeable. I think you'll find that most current research considers there was precious little difference between non-raiding and raiding iron age Scandinavians (basically the latter had boats).
FWIW I'm fairly up to date when it comes to the subject.
As to France being the stem of America's performing arts, I did specify in the field of drama and theatre that England is a more likely candidate. Which can be seen by the likes of Hollywood, Broadway and typical proscenium arch stage-productions as well as a lot of contemporary work which is overtly and distinctly similar to that of English work. Which isn;t to say we've not been influenced by America, but it's no more so than we've been influence by an others. I study drama and theatre studies and am in my 6th year of doing so, so hopefully I know what I'm on about ;)

See, I agree with what both of you have said on the arrogance and views of America. As a whole, it does a lot of things that are ridiculous, but individually, I give each person their own chance and they always seem to prove to be entirely unlike the whole. It's strange that the sum parts are so completely different to the whole sum. Hope I made what i was trying to say clear...

Hashut's Blessing
That's fairly interesting, then you could probably answer me how much of the language and terms from theatre comes from French? I bet it is fair deal?

@Willmark
It wasn't supposed to be a personal remark, I was thinking in general terms (and I had at least thrice as much text written in my head but I got lazy). That's always the problem innit, there's always a difference between the "nation" and the "people" the image of one depends on much smaller subset of the other. To tie it in with the Viking discussion above, scholars reckon that what we now consider the Asa belief was mostly confined to the upper echelons of society. But these were the ones that left the clearest mark we have left so it was the most obvious image we have.
30

Hashut’s Blessing:

Donald Duck, eh?

I know, I just wanted to be pedantic :wink: Also, they both had boats, it was just the style that was different, but they used a lot of the same technology nonetheless.

Not as much as German or Russian terms :wink: But, the terminology is far more to do with the proffession as a whole, as opposed to influenced cultures.

31

Kera foehunter:

oooooooh i forgot  the english gave us benny hill and monty python!!! YEA

btw there where natives in green land before the viking too!!!

that’s who show them how to go to nova scotia!!

becase they did not the wind blown freeornges of green land!!!

32

GRNDL:

That would be Newfoundland, not Nova Scotia. At least as far as the archeological/historical record supports.

Also, no native in Greenland “gave directions” to North America. Bjarni Herjólfsson is credited with the discovery, but didn’t set foot on North American soil. He was actually trying to sail to Iceland, but was blown off course. He found a landmass but it didn’t match what he knew about Greenland and since he was eager to get to Iceland, left it behind. He returned to Greenland and told tall tales about it. 10 years later, Leif Eirikson set out to find the lands that Bjarni talked about and made history.

33

Hashut’s Blessing:

It was also known as Vinland to them :wink:

34

Willmark:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_the_Americas

That should make Khan happy too :wink:

35

Kera foehunter:

native in green land

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaallit

36

snowblizz:

native in green land

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaallit

Kera foehunter
BTW the natives of Greenland aren't particularly "native" in a sense either. I think there was at least 4 distinct migration waves as previous Inuit cultures withered and died out over the centuries. The last ones obviously having been the most successful.
37

Kera foehunter:

well if you look at it that way !! all the cultures died out over the centuries

and was replaced by the next

such as viking,mongal,roman pilgrams and natives

38

snowblizz:

well if you look at it that way !! all the cultures died out over the centuries
and was replaced by the next
such as viking,mongal,roman pilgrams and natives

Kera foehunter
Basically yes. No culture remains unchanged for long periods of time, which really isn't a problem per se, stagnation is never good. I'm not an ethnographer, cultural historian or whoever gets to be the authority in these matters, but I guess the problem is where you draw the line.

However there's subtle difference between dying out and changing. Not quite to the extent national romantics tried to make it though.
Native americans have something left of their culture, Japan and Chinese culture despite having changed very much have a lot of fundamentals still in place, I wouldn't exactly say Mongolian culture has disappeared either.
And while I agree there isn't any Viking culture left (wearing horned helmets at sporting events don't count) most of the people there are "the same", Scandinavians are essentially the descendants of the Vikings (granted with some additions).

I don't quite remember if I had a point to this or was just rambling.
39

two_heads_talking:

well  as you stated well !! it your point of view  history is alway told by the victor!!
good or bad !   i think if you look around the french change the U s !!in its architectal
the peforming art and gave this country culture!! just look at the winery in your state willmart!! even thow the french are now longer a great war power!!!
they are still a great power in the world!! you live in an part of a country that called new england!!!!!i wonder if this could give you your views
i live in the indian terriory   where french and indian lived in for years The french where the fist contact of euro people !!!! maybe this gives me my views

Kera foehunter
America was influenced by all those who left their own countries (for whatever reasons) and came here. They came here for several centuries for the same reasons �?" freedom and hope -- and then a Frenchman created a statue that embodied their hopes and dreams. And it embodied America's promise as well. "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."
THE STATUE OF LIBERTY

war is war.. it's never fun, and the end result is never pretty. although anyone in their respective countries will rally to the banner of that country in defense of their liberties.. When a country refuses to rally around the banner of that country, a civil war will break out. it's the way of humanity.

Many a war has been fought in the name of diety, and many a war has been fought in the defense of the name of some person (whether they be king or magistrate or female companion), many a war has been fought over money.. The common trend is death and wanton destruction. The winning side will say what they will, and so will the losing side, but in the end, it's all the same.

People will cry over peace and love and happiness, but 9 will get you 10 that peace and love and happiness was brought about through war..