[Archive] Hobgoblin and Allies: what would you want in a list?

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

Dead Kennedy:

A question for you all: what would you want from an all hobgoblin list? It’s not Christmas, but one can always wishlist. I was thinking of this today and would like to throw it out there for discussion. I put it in general discussion because it’s not a proposal for a book, and would love to speculate on the kind of units free hobgoblins would associate with.

Bugbears could be a return to two-wound gors on 25mm bases, kobolds as grim counterparts to the gnoblar, and all sorts of wolf. Gnolls? I miss gnolls.

Anyway, what kind of things would you like to see explored in a hobgobbo list? Any region, alignment or stand-in models will do.

2

Tarrakk Blackhand:

Some freaky hobgoblins with machine guns to blow appart Ogres.

But seriously, how about some flying Hobgoblins or hobgoblins riding Doom Machines, like mobile lawn mower type vehicles with exposed blades.

3

Da Crusha:

well Im not really a fan of a hobgobbo army but If I had to choose a race to be in it it would have to be fimir, there needs to be more fimir in the world of warhammer. its too bad their fluff buried the fimir…

4

Dead Kennedy:

A possible way to look at variations of hobgoblins: clans. It works for orks in space, and it is not without precedent (the Sneaky Gits). An independently wealthy clan that dabbles in crude engineering, expert slavers, ones that focus on living with bigger chaos races for protection, druidic rangers, monster hunters… it’s a big Troll Country.

Elite wolf cavalry would be rather neat. If there’s hobgobbo wolf riders, some of them have to grow up to be tough! Maybe a bit of an orcish overtone to that unit, as in hobgoblins that have grown up to nob-like status. A hobgoblin elite, prideful and free.

Hobgoblin shaman and soul puppet unit: a tarpit of t2 wooden and straw dolls, animated by a shaman who has animated the puppet with a tiny bit of his enemy’s soul. Since shaman figures were often outcasts even among their own people, an “oddgit” that gets what he wants through blackmail and soul stealing could make for a career (and a convenient distraction!)

Dare I say it… what about a modification on the grot cutta? That was such a cool idea, and I don’t think I’ve seen a wind powered machine since then. Think a snotling pump wagon crossed with a windsail on land… oh, the damage they’d do.

5

Hobgoblyn:

I just did a reduction of the army book I created about a year ago last night. Anything not included in this list could be pulled from the Orc & Goblins book or the Ogre Kingdom’s Dogs of War choices or Dogs of War to represent their allies and cover the necessary unit types not covered by this list.

Or, alternatively, you just stick these units right into the Orc & Goblins list as additional troop choices.

Hobgoblin Special Rules:

Hobgoblins follow all the same rules for Orcs & Goblins with a few exceptions.

1) When performing a Waagh! Hobgoblins only get a +1 to their roll as if they were Goblins. Although they are embolden by the zealousness of their allies, they do not get swept up into the excitement. Furthermore, an army led by a Hobgoblin Khan may never call a Waagh!.

2) Hobgoblin Ilbici do not use typical Greenskin magic since they are not as intune with Gork & Mork as Shamans. So they do not use the special Greenskin Magic rules.

3) Hobgoblin units are considered to by Goblin units for nonHobgoblin units that have the Ignore Goblin Panic, but Hobgoblin units do not ignore other Hobgoblin units even though they too have Ignore Goblin Panic.

4) Hobgoblins are archery and flanking specialists, so when you make an Animosity roll of 6, they do not move D6" towards the closest unit. Instead, they gain a +1 to hit with all attacks until the end of the turn.

5) Hobgoblins and Black Orcs despise one another. Hobgoblin units ignore the effects of Quell Animosity from Black Orcs. Furthermore, Hobgoblin units will fire at Black Orc unit if one is within 12" when it rolls the Get 'em effect on the Animosity table even if there is another Greenskin unit that is closer.

Beasts: Hobhounds are simple animals that are not highly valued and therefore they do not cause other units to panic when they break, flee or are destroyed.

Mounts

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3

Sabretusk          8  4  0   4  4  2  4  3  4
Sabretusk Special Rules: Cause Fear

Lords

Hobgoblin Khan
Points/model: 80

M  WS BS S  T  W  I  A  Ld

4  6  5  4  4  3  5  4  8
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Options:

* May have an additional hand weapon (+3pts) or a spear (+3pts)

* May carry a bow (+9pts) or a longbow (+15pts)

* Weapons may be poisoned (+6pts)

* May wear light armor (+3pts) or heavy armor (+6pts)

* May carry a shield (+3pts)

* May be mounted on a giant wolf (+18pt) which may be barded (+6pts) or a sabretusk (+35)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 100pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Heroes

Hobgoblin Noyan
Points/model: 40

M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

4  5  4   4  4  2  4  3  7
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Options:

* May have an additional hand weapon (+2pts) or a spear (+2pts)

* May carry a bow (+6pts) or a longbow (+10pts)

* Weapons may be poisoned (+4pts)

* May wear light armor (+2pts) or heavy armor (+4pts)

* May carry a shield (+2pts)

* May be mounted on a giant wolf (+12pts) which may be barded (+4pts)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 50pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Hobgoblin Ilbici
Points/model: 50

M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

4  3  3   3  3  2  2  1  6
Equipment: Hand weapon

Magic: An Ilbici is a Level 1 Wizard. He may choose from the Lores of Shadow or Beast.

Options:

* May be upgraded to a Level 2 Wizard for +35pts

* May ride a wolf (+12pts) which can have barding (+4pts)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 50pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Core

Hobgoblin Hunters
Points/model: 4

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Hobgoblin          4  3  3   3  3  1  3  1  6

Hobgoblin Boss     4  3   4  3  3  1  2  2  6
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Hand weapons, light armor & bows.

Options:

* Any unit may be exchange their bows for longbows for +2pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +5pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +9pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Hobgoblin Boss for +9pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic

Hobgoblin Wolfriders
Points/model: 13

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Hobgoblin          4  3  3   3  3  1  2  1  6

Hobgoblin Boss     4  3  4   3  3  1  2  2  6

Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapons, light armor & bows.

Options:

* Any unit may be equipped with spears for +1pt/model

* Any unit may be equipped with shields for +2pt/model, but will no longer count as Fast Cavarly.

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +8pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +14pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Hobgoblin Boss for +14pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Fast Cavarly

Hobhounds
Points/model: 8

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Hobhound           7  3  0   4  3  1  2  1  3

Beastmaster        4  3  3   3  3  1  2  1  6

Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Teeth & Claws

Options:

* The unit must be led by a Hobgoblin Beastmaster equipped with light armor, hand weapon and shield mounted on a giant wolf for 14pts

Special Rules:

Fast Cavarly, Beasts

This Unit does not count towards the minimum requisite core units of the army.

Special Units

Hobgoblin Sneaky Gitz
Points/model: 9

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Sneaky Gitz        4  4  4   3  3  1  3  1  6

Sneaky Git Boss    4  4   4  3  3  1  3  2  6
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Two Hand weapons

Options:

* Any unit may be given poisoned throwing daggers for +1pt/model

* Any unit may be given light armor for +1pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Sneaky Git Boss for +11pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Poisoned Weapons, Scouts, Skirmishers

Hobgoblin Cataphracts
Points/model: 16

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Cataphract         4  4  4   3  3  1  2  1  6

Cataphract Boss    4  4  4   3  3  1  2  2  6

Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapon, spears & heavy armor

Options:

* Any unit may be equipped with bows for +2pt/model

* Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1pt/model

* Any unit may be give barding to their wolves for +2pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +8pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +14pts

* Upgrade one Cataphract to Cataphract Boss for +14pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic

Rare

Sabretusk Raiders
Points/model: 32

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld

Raider             4  4  4   3  4  2  3  1  8

Raider Boss        4  4  4   3  4  2  3  2  8

Sabretusk          8  4  0   4  4  1  4  3  4
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapon, spears, shields & heavy armor

Options:

* Any unit may be given bows for +2pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +10pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +20pts

* Upgrade one Raider to Raider Boss for +20pts

* May carry a magic banner worth up to 50pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Cause Fear

6

Dead Kennedy:

Fimir would actually be kind of great with a bit of attention paid to making them a believable part of the Warhammer world. A race that survives by copying itself is always rather awesome. What kind of abilities or stats would you dabble in for them? I’d hazard aquatic rules, some solid stats but mediocre leadership.

Well I’ll be darned, it’s in The Wikis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimir

What about wild snotlings? I mean not of the O+G variety, but something much less civil. Bordering on horde of angry confused fungal faeries. Perhaps this may be more at home among Beastmen, but I’d love to see destructive little gangs of hobsnots.

7

Hobgoblyn:

Fimir are in the swamps and have Boglars and Boglings at their command (Swamp Gnoblars and, presumably, Swamp Snotlings).

If you want underground-dwelling fungus greenskins, then I’d direct you to Night Goblins who love devouring poisoned mushrooms. I’m sure they have Snotlings at their disposal.

I don’t know that WarHammer has ever had Bugbears or Gnolls.

8

Kera foehunter:

Well i say Gnobler!! the hobgoblin need some one to boss around and find weapons on the battle field !!
even throw there was no Gnobler at the time they made the cd
they live along side the ogre so i think the hobgoblin would use them to find scraps and brokeb weaponds needing fixed
Pluss they make a very cute gang !!

9

Dead Kennedy:

Hm, why not gnoblars? Hanging around with hobgoblins would make them the least savory of characters…

Fimir… a magic user option would be nice for them. I read their society clusters around female magic users, so that could be appropriate. Use some of the darker lores of magic, Boglars sound great too. Everybody needs somebody to do bidding. To clarify, what are fimir, magical beasts or demons?

Come to think it does anyone have links to the old goblin variants that GW published in … 2004/5? I’m going to look that up, I thought those were neat. Made in early/mid 6th edition, but I could be mistaken.

By the by, feel free to discuss the basis of this thread as well. Would posting rules: yes or no? I’d love to cobble some together, but I’m wondering if that would walk a line of being put into list development.

10

Dead Kennedy:

I like the Sabertusk unit idea overall. Even… unridden units?! A similar mounted unit champion/wild hunter could be fun. Almost a smaller parody of the Ogre Hunter, and the master of a pack of hunting cats. I think longbows are a bit overkill for the riders, they’ll rarely shoot that far. Another option: what about a pounce/extra attack on a to-hit of 6? In D+D if you get pounced by big cats, you are violently raked (ask my barbarian character).

I think your hobgoblin draft would be awesome in combination with an O+G army. Since it is one of the oldest books (and notoriously flaky) adding some wild cards would be just more fun!

Also, a possible typo: Hobhounds have M4? I certainly think they are evenly powered. Relying on a wolfrider is also an interesting weakness. Minimum unit size seems high at 10 though. I think the beasts rule should add a point or two, because paying a point or two to be truly disposable is worth it!

11

Kera foehunter:

I don’t think the sabertusk idea would work !!

have you ever tryed to get a cat to do something!!! at least something you want it to do !!

and as the cat get bigger they would sleep even more !They would find the hobgoblin as a meal not a good one eather!

just remember Sigman and Roy!!

12

Hobgoblyn:

Well, this list is meant to be a reductionist list-- just the absolutely critical units allowing plenty of room for the O&G and OK units to fill the gaps. I thought I’d removed the longbows from all the riders, but I guess I missed when when I copied/pasted. The Hobhounds are movement 7-- I just fixed that too.

Compared to Dire Wolfs, they have 1 higher strength, 2 less move, 1 less initiative and none of the nasty undead special rules (so instead of fearless, they get an effective Ld of 6) so it should be about the same cost. Goblins aren’t any more expensive despite being ignorable in the same manner for instance.

There isn’t any reason you can’t stick an Ogre Hunter in the pack with a couple more Sabretusks.

13

Dead Kennedy:

That would be a fantastic animosity rule! In an unridden sabertusk unit with a hobgoblin hunter champ (a character admittedly) I could see sabertusks being eeeeevil. “Let’s make our move…now.” The cat inverts (you’ve all seen the deathroll) and the hunter has to fight for dominance for a round to ensure they know who’s the boss. If he loses he has a strong chance of dying, and they become an unridden monster pack. In a unit of cavalry it would just be the average animosity roll, but in an unridden unit it’s a battle for actual leadership. If it’s in an army that still plays by animosity, it keeps it in line… animosity and stupidity effects can really hamstring a unit though.

…an Ogre hunter could fit, actually. That unit could certainly do with a tune-up.

14

Hobgoblyn:

I don't think the sabertusk idea would work !!
have you ever tryed to get a cat to do something!!!! at least something you want it to do !!
and as the cat get bigger they would sleep even  more !They would  find the hobgoblin as  a meal not a good one eather!
just remember Sigman and Roy!!

Kera foehunter
Yeah, because no concievable example of your claim here could possibly be a better example than two men who trained dozens of lions and tigers to do multiple shows in front of a live audience most days of the week for over 20 years.

Tens of thousands of successful performances most certainly without a shadow of a doubt demonstrates its absolutely inconcievable to train or control a big cat in any way, shape or form. Particularly if there was one incident one time where one of the dozens of performing cats got upset and dragged one of the trainers across the stage, not even killing him in the process. Well, that one in ten thousand example must be the ultimate rule to follow because it inherantly negates all the other cats and all the other performances where this did not happen.

Oh, and never mind that Siegfried and Roy aren't the only ones that do this. Hundreds of similar trainers across the globe performing similar acts? Well, that just doesn't demonstrate anything one bit, does it? No, no-- it's better to ignore the 99.999% of the cases and posit that 0.001% is the only example that counts.

Oh, and nevermind that this is a fantasy game where you are already positing that little green people on magic mushrooms can destroy warmachines, people can ride wolves, bears and veliciraptors, have lions pull chariots and that this particular creature we are discussing is already a trained creature for another army. Where people are using chainguns, tanks, rockets, and mortars without ever having developed any of the technology or cultural revolutions necessary for these things to exist. You must absolutely be right in your assertion that it is impossible even within the context of fantasy for anyone to get a cat to do anything. I'm sure none of us could possibly come up with any examples of people using lions or tigers as mounts no matter how hard any of us tried. That concept most definately cannot possibly exist in any fantasy. Rats becoming anthromorphic because they are exposed to magic crystals? Totally believable! Demons pouring from a portal in the north pole? Totally believable! Someone riding a big cat? Not believable at all,right?

Of course, I'm sure my reason behind suggesting it as the 'big mount' had absolutely nothing to do with it being readily available in the GW site and yet currently under-utilized. Yes, nevermind that it is available for purchase, instead I'm sure its much better to insist on something that doesn't exist, can't be proxied and would practically have to be carved from scratch out of greenstuff for every single one you wanted to make-- I'm quite certain you are right that such would be the better solution.
15

Dead Kennedy:

That was a very catty response. Be civil.

16

Kera foehunter:

No a catty responce would be me- ow

i thought the whole thing about the elf chaiot would not work eather even the elves would make a great meal to the lions !! i heard elves taste like Chicken

17

Tarrakk Blackhand:

How about something that could go through water (Ignore Water) for when they have to battle Lizardmen?

18

Hobgoblyn:

Well, its one thing to say that maybe they ought to be made exclusively lord mounts or that they should be fast cavarly to signify that they wouldn’t want to get too close to one another (which wouldn’t change the function of the unit much at all since you wouldn’t be looking for a rank bonus anyway).

But saying Siegfried and Roy demonstrate that you can’t train big cats is like saying that anyone who gets into a car will crash into something (often another car) every time or that every time a plane takes off it will crash into a building.

Thing is that you have people riding wyverns, pegasi, dragons, gryphons, giant eagles, giant wooly rhinos, pterodons and mammoths as well as the boars, bears, giant veliciaraptors, and wolves I mentioned earlier. And that’s just the ones I can think of right now, I am sure I’m missing a few.

You also have trained hydras, hawks and other things that would seem impossible to train.

People have had better luck training tigers than rhinos, that’s for certain. I don’t even know if it would be possibly to train an eagle big enough to eat you.

I think it’s also important to remember who they are going to be either fighting or allying with. The ten biggest in order of importance would be the following…

1) Cathay (I’m guessing tons of infantry with gunlines and powerful magic with little icavarly or armor?)

2) Ogre Kingdoms

3) Orc & Goblins

4) Chaos Dwarfs

5) Chaos (Daemons and warriors both, no Old World Beastmen though)

6) Ungols/Kislev (Mostly cavarly and skirmishers)

7) Skaven

8) Rakasha (Magic and powerful melee troops?)

9) Vanara (Skirmishers?)

10) Araby (Super good fast cavarly?)

I’m pretty sure everyone else is too far away. Maybe Dark Elves if the Dark Elves raid Cathay like they do the old world. Maybe Nippon if they are expansionistic, but I don’t know that they are.

19

Dead Kennedy:

Proposed hobgoblin wolf cavalry rule:

-Hobgoblin wolf riders are crafty, devious opponents. A hobgoblin and his wolf are both well versed in dirty fighting and find each other natural allies in the whirling tempest of a cavalry battle. The hobgoblin and wolf juke wildly, dart between the legs of monsters and mounts, and make daring feigns to entice other cavalry to overcommit their blows. When wolf riders are fighting other cavalry models, the enemy suffers a -1 penalty on melee to-hit rolls against wolf riders. If the wolves purchase barding, they lose this ability.

(expand to include ridden monsters? vs. missle attacks would be excessive)

I like that list of enemies and allies, they would definitely shape the character of indigenous hobgoblins. I would also say Beastmen since they are a widespread and disorganized power, but would still be in the possible-ally pile.

There are still uncontrollable monsters in WHFB. Dark Elves and Saurus suffer with big dumb raptors. They suffer from this relationship a bit as well, and it never quite hits its stride as a partnership. Salamanders and Razordons get essential vitamins from eating skinks. Manticores have special reaction rules for their natural fury, if I remember… there are still lots of critters who will dispose of a pack leader, and if it never loses that killer instinct to take its master, I’d say a leadership check is in order.

20

Hobgoblyn:

A lot of what unbridled Hobgoblin Wolfriders can do is inherantly covered by the light cavarly rules. Automatic reformation, feign flight, march and shoot… take a look at the light cavarly rules, you get quite a lot for the penalty of not being able to hold a flank or getting credit for ranks.

To my understanding, the Beastmen book represents the Beastmen you’d find running around in the forests near the Empire and Brettonia.

Skaven, Rakasha and Vanara are all Beastmen too, they are just different sorts of Beastmen from the Minotaurs and Satyrs in the Beastmen book, you see. But maybe those sorts of Beastmen could exists in forests on the other side of the mountains of mourn as well.

I totally forgot Trolls on that list. Troll Kingdoms are another major threat that the Hobgoblin lands bump right up into. So, yeah-- if dealing with Ogres isn’t bad enough, they have Trolls to the north too. Of course, that means they could be allied with Trolls too, though that’s already covered in O&Gs. Although maybe the Trolls have smaller cousins or something-- sort of like Forest Trolls from WarCraft.