[Archive] Illegal Casting of CDs, et al

Aman:

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have opinion about how serious the illegal casting situation is?  And how does one tell if they are an illegal cast?

I’m selling stuff that is Mint in Blister, so I know it is good:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180571189640&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

but what about my mint metal?

ebay auction: 180571999777

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180571999777&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

But how would I even know if it wasn’t in the original package?  Lots of mint metal, and stripped metal turns up, and I’m hocking a bunch of that also, check out my other auctions.

nitroglysarine:

Four ways I can think of:-

1. Still in blister, hard to fake, and why bother really?

2. Re-cast (WHICH ARE ILLEGAL AND WE DON’T SUPPORT IT - so don’t kill me GW) come out smaller than the originals so if you have an original to test the size - or a friend that did, you could ask the seller to take a picture of it against a ruler, if its smaller then that would tell you fake without buying it.

3. Quality; like a photocopy of a photocopy, quality WILL degrade, look for extra flare lines (doubles would make it obviously fake), extra injection lines or rounded edges on the slota base tab - should be sharp really, also bubbles where there should be none, missing features - like spikes, noses etc…

4. Alternatively if you tell eBay its a re-cast, they will force the seller to refund you. - apparently (heard this happen)

cornixt:

GW have made recasts of their own models. The 4th ed savage orcs I bought in 2000 from the store had two flash lines and were smaller than the normal ones.

nitroglysarine:

GW have made recasts of their own models. The 4th ed savage orcs I bought in 2000 from the store had two flash lines and were smaller than the normal ones.

cornixt
forging your own models. :o
tisk tisk GW ;)

nitroglysarine:

2. recasts... come out smaller than the originals so if you have an original to test the size - or a friend that did, you could ask the seller to take a picture of it against a ruler, if its smaller then that would tell you fake without buying it.

nitroglysarine
-would it be a useful resource to have all the 'heights' and lengths of official GW models on the site to be able to use as a reference to check if stuff on eBay was legit? - or a useless resource that no-one would use?

Nicodemus:

2. Re-cast (WHICH ARE ILLEGAL AND WE DON'T SUPPORT IT - so don't kill me GW) come out smaller than the originals so if you have an original to test the size - or a friend that did, you could ask the seller to take a picture of it against a ruler, if its smaller then that would tell you fake without buying it.

nitroglysarine
Is that really true? If you made a mold of the original and then cast it the copy should be the same size... unless there's some weird shrinkage with the mold over time or the casting resin shrinks after it fully sets... but I think any of these effects would be negligible in terms of scale. I think anyone would be hard pressed to spot differences based on size, measurements would have to be incredibly accurate. Even then a decent recast probably displays the same variation as originals.

Best bet would be the casting materials and mold lines, etc. It's not impossible to get a match on the pewter (or plastic) composition, but most of GWs stuff is their own proportions... but we also all know even GWs colours of metal and plastics vary from batch to batch. It's also insanely hard to make exact duplicates that follow the original mold lines exactly, so that could be a much easier check.

The only other way I know of is to compare fine details and look for loss of resolution or defects in the recasts.

~N

cornixt:

GW have made recasts of their own models. The 4th ed savage orcs I bought in 2000 from the store had two flash lines and were smaller than the normal ones.

cornixt
forging your own models. :o
tisk tisk GW ;)


nitroglysarine
You'd have thought that they would have at least cut off the mould lines before recasting, just sloppy.

Niibl:

...you could ask the seller to take a picture of it against a ruler...

nitroglysarine
Sure, you have a shrinkage effect with every casting process.
Every material has it's own shrinkage factor which should be taken into account if parts need to be manufactured with precision.
(mouldmakers in pre CAM times used to have special rulers and gauges with that factor inbuilt)
On such small parts you would have to use calipers to notice it though.
(bronze, a tin alloy, has a shinkage factor of 1.5% for example)
Strange effects on recasts usually are just results from sloppy casting with wrong alloys not shrinkage.

@mouldlines and stuff
Sadly you can't be certain as GW always had bad batches amongst it's miniatures.
I've found all the "indicators" on genuine miniatures as well so I don't think that there is a real recepe to avoid recasts aside from mint blisters.
Only a huge amount of identically "crippled" miniatures in one auction is a dead give away.
I also avoid sellers who shell out the same few rare models over and over again.

nitroglysarine:

ah, thought the ‘shrinkage’ was more pronounced than just 1.5%

dang. :frowning:

Dave King:

Its hard to spot good fakes… here are some pointers to spotting bad ones… Ragged and inverted cast lines. Shows a 2 part home grown silicone mould. A clean double line is not a true indication, it just shows laziness from the cleaning of the master. A clean line most often means a vulcanised mould- so even if it is fake, it may have minimal skrinkage and be perfectly useable and hard to detect.

Smoothness- you loose details, look for fine details in the pictures such as face grills and scored lines. Tips of horns also round off a little.

Single paint color. Painted minis cant be fakes right? No- pirates are onto that one, and do quick platter paint jobs in some cases. Rare, but happens.

Multiples. Dead give away. one guy always seems to be selling minis in multiples of the same figure. Hmmm.

Oh, a bigger problem is shill bidding in my experience… got a Second chance offer really quickly after you lost a bid? Before anyone would realise they cannot pay for it? Hmmm, lets just check bidder history here… oh, look at that, the winning bid only ever bids on this sellers products. Click no.

nitroglysarine:

Oh, a bigger problem is shill bidding in my experience... got a Second chance offer really quickly after you lost a bid?  Before anyone would realise they cannot pay for it?  Hmmm, lets just check bidder history here.... oh, look at that, the winning bid only ever bids on this sellers products.  Click no.

Dave King
-that i now impossible to spot, as eBay has ''improved the system' so you can't see who bids against you, making it FAR harder, if not impossible to spot this type of bidding.
- I reported someone a few years ago before this change and got them banned (untill they made a new account of course). I did this by having a long conversation with them on one account then sending a question only they could answer to the shill account during this message chat, they answered, they fail!
-reported and gone of eBay!
-they even had the nerve to send me an email asking if I still wanted to buy it away from eBay. The reply wasn't polite from me.

Bolg:

I saw a documentary once about the collectors of kindersurprice toys. there are actually people making a living on selling illegal copies of of very expensive kinder toys…

No I’m not drifting of topic here, just saying this is a common problem with miniature collectors of any sort.

nitroglysarine:

wow, i didn’t realise they we actually “collectable”

Blue in VT:

Oh, a bigger problem is shill bidding in my experience... got a Second chance offer really quickly after you lost a bid?  Before anyone would realise they cannot pay for it?  Hmmm, lets just check bidder history here.... oh, look at that, the winning bid only ever bids on this sellers products.  Click no.

Dave King
-that i now impossible to spot, as eBay has ''improved the system' so you can't see who bids against you, making it FAR harder, if not impossible to spot this type of bidding.


nitroglysarine
FYI the same "hidden name" is always thesame so this is still possible...though harder. FYI E**F will always be the same.

This is a tricky subject...I'm learning a lot in this thread.

Blue

snowblizz:

Considering the “collectability” of CDs, somekind of “how to spot fakes” thread and guidelines would be a great service to the community. Just like the “going rates thread”. There’s nothing as dangerous as low liquidity in a supposed free market.

Niibl:

Ragged and inverted cast lines.  Shows a 2 part home grown silicone mould.

Dave King
Sadly GW sometimes must have used necromancy to keep it's moulds running, especially in the times when you still could order oop single miniatures from the cataloques.
The stuff you sometimes received from mail order...:o
They did not have mouldlines. they had mouldLINES ragged and all.
I even received one miniature which had a 3mm shift in the mouldplane.
It was very bad when they switched to white metal. Lackof experience I think.

Dave King:

I just bid what I think they are worth and walk away, never accept a second chance offer. If everyone does that, problem rights itself.