[Archive] Impressions after my first games

KingFisher:

This is one of the best threads i've seen on CDO for a while.
Addictive reading.

wallacer
Every list is a question of internal balance to make a workable list.
To make this list workable you have to start with a base of a very effectively gunline. Depending on the opponent you face determines needing more or less shooting to weaken their close combat units.
I see the baseline war machines necessary is the Hellcannon 2 rockets and 1 Magma cannon.
The Magma cannons are very easy to target with given the 24 inch range plus the bounce/template means you can effectively cover the board with 3 of them.
I recommend using flank denial and setting up in a corner using the Hellcannon to secure the open flank.

Hereo is my example list 2500
Sorcerer Prophet
Level 4 Hashut
Healing potion
Talisman of Protection

Daemonsmith Sorcerer
Lore of Fire

Dark Castellan
Battle Standard Bearer
Armor of Bazherak the Cruel

Core:
Hobgoblins x50
AHW
Hobgoblins x50
Bows
Chaos Dwarf Infernals x10
Standard Bearer/Champion
Flaming Banner

Special:
Magma Cannon
Death Shriekerx2

Iron Daemon
Hellbound
Skull Cracker

Rare:
K'daai Destroyerx1
Hellcannon

Norngahl:

@Zorn

Hi!

Thanks for your quick sum up, but I have to speak up against some of your conclusions.

1. Bull Centaures

I use them as 2x4 BC with Full Command, Great Weapons, Shields and Gleaming Pennant. Comes down to 470 points but heck, they are worth it.

They get 13 S6 attacks in CC + 4 for the stomps. If you think about the point costs, you may feel that 2 attacks are to low and that they should be at least 3 attacks each.

BUT you seem to overlook their defensive stats… T5, 3W and 2+/3+ AS vs. shooting/CC makes them pretty hard to crack up, especially against targets with S5 and lower. While they don´t have an overwhelming mass of damage output, they keep their decent damage output over several rounds of prolonged combat, as they are pretty tough to kill. Do not forget with mobile S6 they close the gap in the CD army. You can easily shove them down the enemies throat, charge them into the hardest hitting enemy unit and expect them to do well. Sure, with few high S attacks they are meant to be Elite killers… If you send them into slaves, you´re doing something wrong. But last game when I saw them eating 2x14 Chaos Warrios, 20 Chosen (without 3++ blessing, granted) and a wharshrine I realised, they are a pretty decent anti-elite unit which is meant to do the jobs you shouldn´t send your other troops into.

Sure, a Kdaii Destroyer is impressive as well. But do remember, that with monsterous cavalry they deny stomp attacks as such AND they are more survivable to cannons AND they also grand your big ones a “pseudo” wardsave like the italians did with their bloodthirster/bloodchrusher combo.

Actually, I really like the bull centaures. I don´t say they are better than the Kdaii Destroyer, but they´re also not worse in my opinion. They simply play a bit different.

Use them upgraded as 8 man squads as a hammer and shove it into the most expensive unit you can find (works even better if you softened up the target with your warmachines) and watch them work.

2. The Kdaii Destroyer

It´s a great unit, granted. Nothing to say more. Great bang for your bucks. I guess everything was said before, great unit. The only thing I don´t like about them is that they´re being unstable… One bad round of dice rolling on your side and a decent passive boni + 1 or two lucky wounds on the opposite can seriously ruin your day. He is still vulnerable to units with many attacks and/or poison, as the 4++ doesn´t prevent you from this pretty good… I wouldn´t charge him into which elves, which are is anti- unit… 30 of them ranked up with 3 attacks each and poison might be pretty bad for him. Nontheless, great damage output and good defensive qualities. Unfortunately, you will hardly ever field two of them as they are rare :wink:

3. Infernal Guard

As already stated in other threats, with the price increase Fireglaives and Blunderbusses are out of cost/effectiviness relation for me. So with HW/S you should build around their defensive nature, using them as the bunker for your chars and to soak up small-medium targets. Guess something around 25 bodies should be right for them, depending on what opponent you face you can field them 5x5 or 3x7+4.

They are fair for what they cost with HW/S. S4, T4 and 3+/6++ are a very good base for 12 points and a CORE unit and they are tough victory points to get. Sure, you can field 40 of them as well with success, but I rather prefer some more tactical flexibility and take some different units along their side, for example

4. Hobgoblins

Which are pretty decent with 40 bodies, HW/S, Banner and Musician as a tarpit unit and a passive combat resolution bringer.

Either use them to tarpit whatever you don´t want to face for at least two turns, more often 3 turns, or you use them to join an already existing combat to make use of the backstabbers rule… Just think of +3 from ranks, +1 from banner, +1 from charge, +2 from rear charge, +1 from backstabbers… +8 is pretty impressive if you ask me :wink:

Either way, they are good combat units, and even with 4 points each, they fill another gap in the CDs army- bodies. Heck, I´d even take them if they were 5 points… We´re not nightgoblins with LD5, our generals easily have LD10… So let them be somehow more expensive, I don´t care. They do a great job.

Bows are a nice thought, good in very shooty lists. Otherwise I´d rather concentrate about their defensive role, to deny kills to the enemy, remain steadfest as long as possible and make biggest use of their passive boni.

5. The Iron Dameon

I don´t get it how someone can say he´s bad… I think the cannons are just great! Usually 4 hits with S6 armour piercing and D3 wounds per hit seriously kill all enemy monsterous cavalry, lone characters, warmachines or monsters… Get rid of hydras, steamtanks, bloodchrushers from the far distance. That´s something a magma cannon cannot do. Sure these are S5 and flaming doing d3 wounds, but they only ever inflict one hit per model underneath the template so they won´t ever cause more than 3 wounds on a single model per turn, so the daemons cannons are still better to get few or single models of the table in only one turn, especially because the cannons are S6 AP.

I really love this unit, esepcially just for it´s cannons. CDs lack movement, so you have to be shooty to equal this. A fast and sneaky enemy will circle you, making your slow and few CDs always running behind him, just reacting than acting. Once he got your warmachines, your phase is over, as then he´ll get you with his movement in combined charges and so on.

Really, beside IG with fireglaives, the daemon is our only truly reliable shooting using it´s BS rather than throwing artillery dice. The smaller the targets or the harder, the worse our warmachines are. The daemons cannons fill this gap, as he can put several hard hits on a small and/or hard target.

Really, I love the Daemon to get tough units off the board as fast as possible. Granted, the magma cannon does of course better against bodies.

Therefore you should take a magma cannon AND a Daemon to get most out of your stuff :slight_smile: But don´t think the daemon is better… He´s a great tough-several-wounds-model killer, the best CDs have.

In CC he causes 2+D6 S7 impact hits which hit automatically… Fair 5 hits, 4 dead models… Great against elite as well. With unbreakable, 3+ AS, S7/T7 and 7 wounds he will hold up nearly everything in the game for the whole game. I consider this a nice addition to use when the cannons did their job they were meant for. Use him to join existing combats or smaller/elite units and you´ll see he´ll work gread.

Enemies body units should be the target of our deathshriekers/magma cannons and our IG with HW/S to eat up the rests… They will do great in this role, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, taking as good as no wounds in return :wink:

Conclusions:
- Use your Warmachines against bodies, starting with the most efficient enemy (knights for magma, big blocks for deathshriekers 5") and so on.
- Use your big ones (Iron Daemon, Bull Centaures, Kdaii) against the hardest enemies targets on the battlefield, starting with the ones that threat you most (usually monsters/knights/chosen/monsterous cavalry and fast units that get close to your WM)
- Use your core to kill easy-medium units that already had been bothered by ur warmachines and they will excel at their task. That´s what they were meant for, to soak up the rests.
- Hobgoblins as passive CR generator or steadfest block, or, if you face much mass units/MSU, use them as a horde to get 30 attacks. Remember, LD10 (SP, DS with banner of discipline) general baby :smiley:

That´s just my few cents. Will post somthing about the other units tomorrow.

@Thommy
Fixed :wink:

@Borin
Okay, understood. Non the less Hobs are cheap passive CR and sacrificial units CDs lack. :wink:

Borin Sourfist:

or you use them to join an already existing combat to make use of the backstabbers rule.. Just think of +3 from ranks, +1 from banner, +1 from charge, +2 from rear charge, +1 from backstabbers..
'Backstabbers' doesn't work like that in the book. If an enemy unit flees from combat and the Hobgoblins restrain from pursuit they get D6 automatic S3 hits on the fleeing unit. The bigger the hobgoblin unit, the more D6s you get.
It's just a fluffy rule now and highly situational, really only of any use against small, lightly armoured units like fast cav and skirmishers. Fortunately if your units of Hobgoblins are armed with bows and lurking near the war machines or on the flanks, it's quite likely that fast cav and skirmishers will be what they end up fighting.

Thommy H:

Could people not quote massive long posts please? It’s quite sufficient to just address your own massive long post to the person to whom you’re replying. We don’t need to read everything that gets posted twice.

Zhorn:

Thanks for your elaborate answer.

1. Bull Centaures

BUT you seem to overlook their defensive stats… T5, 3W and 2+/3+ AS vs. shooting/CC makes them pretty hard to crack up, …

Norngahl
No, i don’t overlook their defensive stats - it is actually the one positive thing i have (had) to say about them :wink: They’re sturdy.

But so is other stuff in the list. I want something other than WMs to actually kill stuff.
You can easily shove them down the enemies throat, charge them into the hardest hitting enemy unit and expect them to do well.



saw them eating 2x14 Chaos Warrios, 20 Chosen (without 3++ blessing, granted) and a wharshrine I realised, they are a pretty decent anti-elite unit which is meant to do the jobs you shouldn´t send your other troops into.

Norngahl
That’s pretty impressive and not my experience at all. Granted, i “only” used 6 of them, but they bounced off of the harder stuff (ogres) and were tied up by lesser stuff (handgunners) quite easily.

And while it may be true that 2 more are the magic number - it seems not very likely (and would also mean to take less of other stuff…).

As i said - since i have lovely models, i won’t give up on them. But ATM i just don’t see the light.

I could see their worth in 3000+ battles together with a hero with the crown.

But it is good to see someone so enthusiastic about them. :slight_smile:
3. Infernal Guard

Norngahl
I used 23 bodies and they still died (wiped out vs. ogres, 1 body standing vs. empire - and the last one only survived thanks to the game ending).

So - 23 is way too few for a main combat unit. I predict 25 won’t be enough, either. :wink:

On top of that i don’t think they’re priced fairly at 12 points a piece. Sure, it is not horrible, but compared to other 12 pts units… (Hammerers spring to the mind, or witch elves, or black guard, or grave guard, or bloodletters, …). In the context of an army which pays an arm and a leg for everything (apart from hobgoblins) an expensive yet un-killy core choice just adds up to the strain on points, and therefore playability. I don’t think they’re far too expensive, and with other stuff cheaper i wouldn’t say a thing. Expensive, yes but ok.
5. The Iron Dameon

I don´t get it how someone can say he´s bad… I think the cannons are just great! Usually 4 hits with S6 armour piercing and D3 wounds per hit seriously kill all enemy

Norngahl
I don’t follow your logic here - the iron demon hits on “6” most of the time (“5” when stationary or when about to be charged next turn). If the thing would hit on “4” (and possibly be able to shoot into HtH, to do something vs. cavalry or MI, or M, or MC, …) i would agree - good shooting. Expensive, but good. But - the horror of a single high elf eagle pinning the thing down for all eternity…

Generally speaking, i’m with you on your conclusions (exceptions are written above) - just, i don’t have the points in a typical 2000 - 3000 points army to include it all. K’daii, iron demon, 40 strong HGs, artillery, IG, characters…

But a positive outlook is always welcome and i’ll report back here my next battles (vs. high elves - dreaded eagle… :wink: and dwarfs).

eratu13:

"I don’t follow your logic here - the iron demon hits on “6” most of the time (“5” when stationary or when about to be charged next turn)"

from the forge world web site “It may move normally up to its Move

distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so” so its always 5’s at long range and 4’s at short apart from skirmishers

KingFisher:

"I don't follow your logic here - the iron demon hits on "6" most of the time ("5" when stationary or when about to be charged next turn)"

from the forge world web site "It may move normally up to its Move
distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so" so its always 5's at long range and 4's at short apart from skirmishers

eratu13
Either way its better with the Skull cracker, just use something faster on it flank to screen anything it can't hurt.

Zhorn:

You are right - i only read the “Select a target as per the other normal rules for shooting…” - playing RAW you could also stand&shoot, since it misses the “slow to fire” special rule…

Coopervisor:

Interesting thread to read through. Always good to get an idea of what I should be looking closely at as a player new to Fantasy.

Thanks for the input folks.

aka_mythos:

Either way its better with the Skull cracker, just use something faster on it flank to screen anything it can't hurt.

KingFisher
Idk if the price changed any but it seems over priced when you consider you could get a good combination of magma cannons or rockets for the same amount. Please convince me because I really want to use it.

KingFisher:

Either way its better with the Skull cracker, just use something faster on it flank to screen anything it can't hurt.

KingFisher
Idk if the price changed any but it seems over priced when you consider you could get a good combination of magma cannons or rockets for the same amount. Please convince me because I really want to use it.


aka_mythos
I would say give it a try then. The first time it slams into a unit of infantry and does a pile of impact hits, and then thunder stomps another rank or 2 off you will like it.

What I like best as at T8 it is very hard to even wound, it can effectively tie up big blocks of infantry in way nothing else in the list can. With its movement range and good armor save it is very safe from most close combat threats.

I have used it multiple times to smash a unit and then run them down on an impact hit charge the next turn.

While you could run 2 MC or 3 DR's for the price you would be approaching a cheese level of gun line, if you have more shooting in the list.

Basically it is fast/tough as nails and can hold a flank. Unlike the DR and MC those easily die to scouts and hunters.

wallacer:

Has anybody played a test game with the watchtower scenario yet?

I’m wondering if a unit with Fireglaives is a good option for assigning to Tower guarding duties.

aka_mythos:

I would say give it a try then. The first time it slams into a unit of infantry and does a pile of impact hits, and then thunder stomps another rank or 2 off you will like it.  
...
I have used it multiple times to smash a unit and then run them down on an impact hit charge the next turn.
...
Basically it is fast/tough as nails and can hold a flank. Unlike the DR and MC those easily die to scouts and hunters.

KingFisher
I plan on trying them out they seem fun and at least moderately effective... others aren't getting the best results... but are they necessarily consistent or cost effective? To put it another way... hypothetically... do you think a Iron Daemon line army could be viable?

Borin Sourfist:

I’m not sure I’d want to be throwing Bull Centaurs into the front of anything, with only 2 attacks each, but into the side with Great Weapons however…

6 BC (no champ for this example) in 2 ranks flank charging will put 12 GW attacks and 3 stomps on any infantry unit that’s 3 or more ranks deep with very little in the way of return attacks, plus they’ll be disrupting and getting bonuses for charging and being in the flank.

Given that we have multiple options for pinning a unit in place (Deep and cheap hobgoblins, Stubborn IG, Unbreakable K’daai and Iron Daemons) I see the Bull Centaurs as a swiftstriding Hammer unit, not an Anvil. They don’t look like a point-and-shoot wrecking ball of a unit, but they do look fast, tough, reliable and able to get Great Weapons where they’re needed. They won’t kill lots of stuff unsupported, but they have the potential to make crucial charges to break combats.

I can also see a use for units of 3 with great weapons. At 150 points it’s a relatively cheap drop, but will see off skirmishers, fast cav, small knight units, eagles and similar flyers (even with low powered, but annoying heroes on them), chariots and war machines. They’re fast enough to catch all these things and bring 9 T5 wounds with a 3+ save and S6 attacks, perfect for busting up all the annoying, disruptive stuff that can ruin your evil plans, while keeping your mainline units and war machines free to concentrate on other things.

I’m wondering if a unit with Fireglaives is a good option for assigning to Tower guarding duties.
I would imagine so. I’ll stick my neck out here and say Blunderbusses would be good too. Unless you have a really stumpy tower you’ll have the 10+ models shooting that you need to ignore long range and S+S penalties and they’ll still get their shields and parry save in CC unlike the Fireglaives. So, the Fireglaives will hit harder, but the Blunders will take less damage. Blunders in a 3 storey tower could potentially get 45 shots on the S+S. Once the charging unit has been seen off you can give them another volley in your turn.

Baggronor:

Please convince me because I really want to use it.
If you're playing Skaven, go for it. If you're playing Ogres or Brets, leave it at home. I think against most armies, its fine, there'll be opportunities for it to shine - the problems are more with internal balance.
I can also see a use for units of 3 with great weapons. At 150 points it's a relatively cheap drop, but will see off skirmishers, fast cav, small knight units, eagles and similar flyers (even with low powered, but annoying heroes on them), chariots and war machines. They're fast enough to catch all these things and bring 9 T5 wounds with a 3+ save and S6 attacks, perfect for busting up all the annoying, disruptive stuff that can ruin your evil plans, while keeping your mainline units and war machines free to concentrate on other things.
Hmm. Interesting points. It is true that with T5 and a 3+ or even 2+, they are very tough and quite manouevrable. Maybe there are uses for them. Are they M7 or 8?

Xander:

Movement 7.

Maybe I should make a unit of 3 BCs… Hrm…

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Bull Centaurs are the only unit I can think of that is on a 50x50mm base but only has 2 attacks.  Even ogres are better and I have to admit I’ve always thought ogres are garbage troops.  I just don’t see them making my list.

When they were on a cavalry base, they were ok.  Not great, not over-powered.  Just vanilla.  Double the base size means half the attacks plus a cost increase?  I honestly don’t know what they were thinking…

Grimbold (the Bull Centaur hater) Blackhammer

MartyF:

I think the bull centaurs with great weapons and hatred can be pretty devastating.

For me the majority of it comes down to points unfortunately.  If you take the cost of things out of the equation then I�?Tm really happy with the choices and rules.  For a variant list we have a decent number of choices and possible builds.  

My problem is I just can�?Tt make it all work because the points on most things is prohibitive, especially when compared to similar options in other books, with the exception of a few of the warmachines.

aka_mythos:

I think its a reaccuring theme… units are good… just not good for the points.

lostmember:

Is monstrous cav not on a 50x50 base, rather than a 40x40…or are Bull Centaurs monstrous infantry?