[Archive] Indy GT Dwarfs of Chaos list version 3 now up

mattbird:

http://warmongers.ziggyqubert.com/wmbb/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6771

thanks again to all those who have been involved so far in playtesting, feedback, and allowing use of images and models*

* these will be used in the yet to be designed hobby and fluff sections

kerbak:

Good news, thanks for the update

Just make a quick view, and i like most of the changes…

demonsmiths: I like the changes here, I will have to check how works now, but for the moment looks nice.

Can he use arcane items??? note that all characters said that can use ANY magic item.

Eruption Gun: how many dwarves are the crew of this machine, its not mentioned (or i didnt see it). I still think that its an expensive weapon, as for 60 points yo can do from only 2 to 10 hits wich has to impact, are like imperial guns, i think that should cost between 30-40 points.

I suppose than been a machine cant move and shoot on the same turn, right?

Well my coments are basically are what I missed from RH for my game style, I think that Bullcentaurs must have the option to use a magic banner, and that is necesary to have a hero mage, or dispel option… i use to play with fighting commanders, and its important to me to have a hero to dispel magic.

I hope to play with this list next thursday, so after that i will return with new comments, but please check the dispel option for a hero level

mattbird:

Just a note- in the current list you start with 4 dispel dice, and the ability to add a 5th and a pseudo dispel scroll through enchanted items, so anti-magic is really covered without the need for a hero-level mage apart from the Daemonsmith.

(this is not an endorsement of these particular rules)

kerbak:

mmm that sounds better and cover my needs on battle:cheers

Thanks for the comment

Servius:

I going to propose this list to my local hobby shop as it has evolved in to a playable state really… the first rev I saw was bad in my opinion… BTW Im interested in doing an AB 2.2c file for this list but would love to get in contact directly with the writer so I can get quick explanations of items and such for the file. working on a webboard is tough as I really like getting the files done quickly.

dedwrekka:

Just a note- in the current list you start with 4 dispel dice, and the ability to add a 5th and a pseudo dispel scroll through enchanted items, so anti-magic is really covered without the need for a hero-level mage apart from the Daemonsmith.

(this is not an endorsement of these particular rules)

mattbird
One idea for if you wanted to go to a more standard magic list, that would also allow you to keep the Demonsmiths, is to borrow the Warplock Engineer rules from the skaven. The Demonic Weapon covers their casting abilities, but just give them the explination that they count as level 1 wizards, but know no spells. The Demonic Weapon gives them the ability to cast, they get access to Arcane items like Dispell Scrolls, they generate dispel dice, and there's no need to remove the Demonsmiths from the list enitrely.

kerbak:

Just a note- in the current list you start with 4 dispel dice, and the ability to add a 5th and a pseudo dispel scroll through enchanted items, so anti-magic is really covered without the need for a hero-level mage apart from the Daemonsmith.

(this is not an endorsement of these particular rules)

mattbird
One idea for if you wanted to go to a more standard magic list, that would also allow you to keep the Demonsmiths, is to borrow the Warplock Engineer rules from the skaven. The Demonic Weapon covers their casting abilities, but just give them the explination that they count as level 1 wizards, but know no spells. The Demonic Weapon gives them the ability to cast, they get access to Arcane items like Dispell Scrolls, they generate dispel dice, and there's no need to remove the Demonsmiths from the list enitrely.


dedwrekka
Hey that sound very nice :cheers

I like the demonsmiths, and im in fact making some minutures specially for them, but that options sounds cool too,,,

I also must say that these list has been include on the avialble list for tournaments in the club I use to go,,, and also with my friends,, some of them are starting there own armies

cornixt:

The approach is interesting. Now it seems more like a Dwarf army that has been adjusted for the Chaos Dwarf units rather than a Chaos Dwarf army with more rules. Had a quick read of v3 and I haven’t spotted any easy repeatable way of getting more dispel dice or dispel scrolls. The lack of a hero level character able to get these items seems to be a big flaw and the Daemonsmiths are only a tiny step away from it. What has happened to the daemonic weapons?

Thommy H:

If there’s only one combination of characters and magic items that makes them capable of holding their own in terms of anti-magic, that’s probably not a good thing. An army list should always suggest as many viable builds as possible, I believe.

mattbird:

Just a note- in the current list you start with 4 dispel dice, and the ability to add a 5th and a pseudo dispel scroll through enchanted items, so anti-magic is really covered without the need for a hero-level mage apart from the Daemonsmith.

(this is not an endorsement of these particular rules)

mattbird
Cornixt / Thommy-
I'm not sure if you'd seen this reply I'd posted? On top of the above, there are MR items, high priests giving dice and scrolls, etc.

There is a good range of magic defense available and many ways to get it, including taking nothing extra at all and just going with the base 4 dispel dice...

cornixt:

I saw it but it is still a problem. Being able to add one dispel dice and an almost-Dispel scroll aren’t quite the same as being able to take Runesmiths and runes of spell breaking, or lvl1 wizards with dispel scrolls. The only way to defend yourself from heavy magic lists is to take the Sorc Lord, when it seems so simple to just make the daemonsmith into a Lvl1 wizard with no power dice so he gets access to the scrolls and generates DDs himself.

You’d think that Dwarfs would still have some half-decent magic defence.

Thommy H:

Cornixt / Thommy-
I'm not sure if you'd seen this reply I'd posted? On top of the above, there are MR items, high priests giving dice and scrolls, etc.

There is a good range of magic defense available and many ways to get it, including taking nothing extra at all and just going with the base 4 dispel dice...

mattbird
As Cornixt says, this is fine, but it appears to be the only combo that will give strong magic defence and you can only use it in 2,000+ points games! 4 Dispel dice is just fine, but it won't cut it against armies that have actual Wizards, or even most Dwarf armies. It may be a better than average starting point, but if you can't supplement it with Lv 1 Wizards and scroll caddies, the army will get destroyed in the enemy magic phase.

mattbird:

I saw it but it is still a problem. Being able to add one dispel dice and an almost-Dispel scroll aren't quite the same as being able to take Runesmiths and runes of spell breaking, or lvl1 wizards with dispel scrolls. The only way to defend yourself from heavy magic lists is to take the Sorc Lord, when it seems so simple to just make the daemonsmith into a Lvl1 wizard with no power dice so he gets access to the scrolls and generates DDs himself.

You'd think that Dwarfs would still have some half-decent magic defence.

cornixt
I understand the lack of true dispel scrolls, but surely your realize, If we made the change you suggest, we would also take away the 4 base dispel dice- hence you'd have only 3 dispel dice with a lvl 1 scroll caddy vs. the 4 we are giving to start off, for free.

Thommy H:

Or you could just take a few of those hypothetical Level 1 Wizards…

Remember that Dwarfs get access to bonus Dispel dice with their Runesmiths, and most armies have 2 Dispel dice plus at least 1 per Wizard and probably a couple from magic items and other special rules. Right now, this Chaos Dwarf list gives them sub-standard magic protection (4 dice basic, with the opportunity for one or two more in large games only).

How can an army of less than 2,000 points play a defensive magic strategy at all? They’re going to get destroyed by a Vampire Counts or Tzeentch Daemon army of the same size.

mattbird:

Is it the dispel dice that you do not feel are enough? Or is it the lack of dispel scrolls without a High Priest?

cornixt:

Personally, it is both. I’d happily swap the Daemonsmiths spell casting ability for the dispel dice and ability to take scrolls. If I had to choose only one, then I’d choose the scrolls, but then I’d still question the ability to put up a half-decent magic defence at 2k+ without a High Priest (who is Ld9?! Is CD society really ruled by people less able than mere Lords).

Thommy H:

Yeah, it’s both. This army just can’t do magic defence. You need to be playing at at least 2,000 points to get dispel scrolls, and you can’t bump up your dispel dice below that level either. So even though there’s this fluff about them being magically resistant, they’re probably the most magically vulnerable army in the game!

My feeling is that this is very obviously an army list designed for tournament play. That is, with the expectation that people will just take the best build whatever happens, and that it will be used to make a 2,000 point army. So as long as there’s one viable build that works at that level (and there really is just one…) no tournament player should mind.

But, in practice, players prefer to have as many viable options as possible. Everything in each category should be as appealing as everything else - can you honestly say that that’s the case with the Lord choices, for one thing?

mattbird:

I have passed this on to the playtesters and Kevin:

"One suggestion that has come through the grapevine is to give Daemonsmiths access to dispel scrolls, which I agree with and think we should add in.

The other suggestion has been to just go back to 2 dispel dice base, and have daemonsmiths each add 1 dispel dice to the pool, which I agree with as well, but don’t really care that much, because the difference is negligible."

Out of curiosity, what do you guys bring for your average magic defense? I have always just taken a single scroll caddy. (assuming I don’t go magic heavy)

Thommy H:

The other suggestion has been to just go back to 2 dispel dice base, and have daemonsmiths each add 1 dispel dice to the pool, which I agree with as well, but don't really care that much, because the difference is negligible."
The difference is only negligible if you take just two of these hypothetical Daemonsmiths. The point is to have options. You say you usually only take one scroll caddy - that's great, but what about people who take more? As I said before, variety is important in an army list.

Most armies have 2 dispel dice basic, with the option to add at least one more for each Wizard.
Dwarfs have 4 dispel dice basic, with the option to add more with Runesmiths.
This version of Chaos Dwarfs has 4 dispel dice basic, with the option to add more only in large games if you take a particular character type.

So, in other words, Chaos Dwarfs just don't have an option to play defensively in the magic phase with this list. And, as far as I can see, no one in their right mind would not take the High Priest at 2,000 points - which makes the other Lord choices pointless, and in fact means that the army can't go combat heavy either because their general has to be a Wizard Lord.

mattbird:

First off, it looks like we are making your recommended changes, so further discussion is likely moot from here out. But just to clarify something I do not at all understand:


So, in other words, Chaos Dwarfs just don’t have an option to play defensively in the magic phase with this list. And, as far as I can see, no one in their right mind would not take the High Priest at 2,000 points - which makes the other Lord choices pointless, and in fact means that the army can’t go combat heavy either because their general has to be a Wizard Lord.


Thommy H
I’m just not seeing how your math adds up re: dice. You are getting the extra dice of 2 hero wizards�?" for FREE. Then you get another dice as an enchanted item.

That’s 5 dispel dice with no wizards.

Other armies have to take three hero wizards to get 5 dispel dice.  (we’re not talking about lords, because you want to focus on defense with heroes)

Of the 2 choices, the former is so far preferable in any instance except mega-battles that I simply cannot understand the desire to give up 2 free dispel dice for the option to buy back 3.

To say that “Chaos Dwarfs just don’t have an option to play defensively in the magic phase with this list” is simply untrue. The best, most defensive option is to go with no daemonsmiths, 5 dice, and the “scroll”. This is what I have been taking in all my test games, and enemy magic (apart from IR spells) has not effected me at all.

It’s better defense than a scroll caddy, certainly, and it costs 50 pts, as opposed to 115 for a scroll caddy.

-------------------------

Again, I’m really curious what magic defense you are taking personally, in your games, that you think this is inadequate? I’d really love to see some examples of what you are fielding, and how it is better in magic defense.