[Archive] Indy GT Dwarfs of Chaos list version 3 now up

Grimstonefire:

In my opinion it’s the balance between dispel dice and general magical prowess that is the issue.  

Comparing to all other armies is an important issue, there is a reason they don’t all generate 4 DD.   Dwarfs have it because they don’t have the offensive magical capabilties.  If your version of CD do, then they should not have it as well.  2 basic DD +1 generated one could be a fair compromise, but then I haven’t really looked at your spell potential. Magical offense or magical defence, not both.

Thommy H:

Matt, it’s all about options. Yeah, most average armies of comparable size would max out at 5 dispel dice, but they could have more with certain magic items and they could load up on dispel scrolls. This list has no choice but to be average in terms of magical defence.

mattbird:

ah, well, we’re changing it anyway. :wink:

cornixt:

The 4DD help, but there is a visible gap between not needing anything else (below 1k) and a mandatory High Priest (above 2k, and he really shouldn’t be mandatory). I’ll await the next version.

mattbird:

again, I find it odd that you all use so much magic defense. I would lov to see some sample character setups that you actually use…

Thommy H:

Matt, it doesn’t matter what we use or what we don’t use. “No one would use that” is not a viable excuse for reducing the number of possible builds. If an army list only offers one possible army, then it doesn’t work - you might as well just proscribe every list and not bother with options.

Like Cornixt says, there’s a straight jump from being perfectly happy with 4DD, and not being able to compete except with a High Priest that depends on the size of the army. You need some way for Heroes to generate dispel dice, or offer magical defence. That, or provide some rationale for why Chaos Dwarfs are so unusually vulnerable to magic.

Remember: most armies generate about 4DD at below 2,000 points or at least have dispel scrolls. Dwarfs generate more (because of Runesmiths). So this Chaos Dwarf army is average or sub-standard in terms of magic defence, with no option to be any better.

Swissdictator:

mattbird: Maybe it’s just a reflection of the our respective tournament scenes. What seems to be the average magic levels in your neck of the woods? shrug Maybe it’s a different approach in our respective areas?

For me personally… even in my casual games I tend to see more magic orientated armies… Dark Elves, Tzeentch Mortals… High Elves on occassion (and soon more and more of these!)

So take it with a grain of salt I suppose. Again, maybe we’re just being paranoid with the VC, DoC, and DE being designated tier 1 and while we think we need a magic defense of 2X… maybe we only need a magic defense of X. I hope I wrote that well… no sarcasm intended either. :slight_smile:

For my Ravening Hordes CD list I feel like I am usually outclassed in magic. I have two level 2’s… one with 2 Dispell Scrolls, and the other with the Staff of Sorcery. My other characters is a Lord on Taurus and a Hero BSB.

Again, maybe I’m just off kilter forgetting the base 4 Dispell Dice. Maybe it has thrown my list building thinking for a loop. That could be a very real factor. I just see that Sorc Lords will be a standard option in this list. shrug It’s not a criticism, just a prediction. :slight_smile: I probably would as the magic looks AWESOME for this army.

mattbird:

around there the magic heavy armies typically have 9-10PD and a bound. Some go magic nuts, like tzeentch legion, but they are the exception.

I play chaos mortals and Orcs and Goblins for the most part at GTs, with just a scroll caddy, and find that 3 DD and 2 scrolls are enough. This is with facing 2-3 VC, DE or Daemons armies at each 5-game GT. My last GT I faced 2 Daemon and 2 DE armies, for instance.

dedwrekka:

Facing off against friends’ Lizardmen army, Vampire Counts, Tzeentch Mortals or Dark Elves I regularly need two lesser shamans, three dispel scrolls and a Mork totem to put a good stop to their devastation.

Though against Bretonnians or Dwarfs they go to waste, but my shamans get to push back in those cases.

Baggronor:

I would love to see some sample character setups that you actually use...
Dwarfs: Runelord with 2 runes of spellbreaking + anvil. 7 DD. He stops most things :) VCs still get spells off though. The slowness of the Dwarf army means I am exposed to hostile spells pretty much all the time, and need to stop things reliably.

CDs: Sorcerer Lord with 3 scrolls. He is my entire magic phase, and does ok. 4DD with 3 scrolls total. Same reasoning as the Dwarf list.

DE: I have no wizard at the moment, but I'm 'experimenting'. Loads of troops, mostly fast moving, decisive aggressive force with the ability to close down mid to long range spells fast.

VC: Total 10 cast dice, 6 DD plus Black Periapt. For a tournament VC list its positively fluff-tastic, yet gets the job done against pretty much anyone. Magic defence is less relevant, as I can replace casualties and can protect vulnerable units by screening etc. 1 scroll to stop the dirty spells when its absolutely essential.

WoC: Caddy. But the army is all cavalry with both magic resistance items. Not to mention most of my models that matter have a 1+ save.

Swissdictator:

For my DE I take a level 4 with dagger and something else, lvl 2 with +1 power power die and scroll… BSB with pendent, enchanted shield… and 1-2 Assassins.

VC: Lvl 3 Lord, lvl 2 hero, lvl 1 hero. (and that’s light for VC around here)

Nurgle Demons lvl 4 GUO and 2 lvl 1 Heralds.

dedwrekka:

So, Without the High Priest, you get 5 DD max and a not-Dispel Scroll.

I just don’t see a list doing that well in higher points games with 5 DD max and no Dispel Scrolls. It’s not like other armies where you take a Scroll Caddy at Hero level. You’re forced to take a Scroll Caddy Lord choice just to survive at higher points. With only 5 dice to rely on, you might get a couple smaller spells, but you will get entirely boned by an army that has even moderate magic.
It turns choosing High Priests into a foregone conclusion.
I don’t even have to playtest the army to find out what’s going to happen in the Magic phase, because I’ve played armies with mediocre magic defense in tournaments, it’s not pretty. You’re taking an underpowered list into Power Gamer Paradise.

mattbird:

Kevin has amended the list to allow daemonsmiths to take the equivalent of scrolls. No change on the dispel dice setup, for now.

I think the tourney scene in the US is much softer than that in other countries, which has been influencing our opinions on the matter. Like I’d said, I generally get by quite fine with just a scroll caddy…

Baggronor:

I think the tourney scene in the US is much softer than that in other countries
I get the impression that 40k is for the US what Fantasy is for Europe :)

dedwrekka:

I think the tourney scene in the US is much softer than that in other countries
I get the impression that 40k is for the US what Fantasy is for Europe :)


Baggronor
40k is like American football.

Thommy H:

For the record, I don’t think you should design a list with tournament play in mind. The tournaments it’s intended for typically being softer is not an excuse to build in a major disadvantage without explanation - there are people who will want to use this list to play friendly games, or who will play very competitive games with it and if it doesn’t cater for them, that’s a problem. Honestly, I baulked a little bit when I first read stuff about this list being “mid tier”. Thinking in terms of tournament performance when designing an army is not conducive to organic design, I believe.

Baggronor:

40k is like American football.
And Fantasy is like...um...football? Sorry 'soccer' :)

Swissdictator:

The scroll option will go a long ways though, as now a Sorc Lord doesn’t need to worry about taking them.

mattbird:

For the record, I don't think you should design a list with tournament play in mind. The tournaments it's intended for typically being softer is not an excuse to build in a major disadvantage without explanation - there are people who will want to use this list to play friendly games, or who will play very competitive games with it and if it doesn't cater for them, that's a problem. Honestly, I baulked a little bit when I first read stuff about this list being "mid tier". Thinking in terms of tournament performance when designing an army is not conducive to organic design, I believe.

Thommy H
yah, I understand what you are saying- our club, and our local* gaming community, is very tournament focused. If a list is not tourney legal, most would not play it, and nobody would actually build the army.

The reference to "mid tier" is not a tourney reference as such, we are just saying that it should not be as powerful as Daemons, VC, DE, and Stegadon Lizardmen armies. Those lists garner so many complaints, and if they were fan-made lists, would never be taken seriously.

But, even If the project were a fan list for the sake of a fan list, we'd still strive for "average" power level.

*local= northeast US

Grimstonefire:

Vaguely on topic I find the concept of designing a list to be any sort of ‘tier’ an odd concept.  If it is balanced and has built in weaknesses to compensate for powerful things (like expensive/ limited units or magic items etc), then there is no need to build lists around any sort of tier level.

Edit:

Damn, ninja’d on my posting. You already answered it. :wink: