[Archive] Indy GT Dwarfs of Chaos list version 3 now up

mattbird:

The scroll option will go a long ways though, as now a Sorc Lord doesn't need to worry about taking them.

Swissdictator
Agreed, it's a good change- and not one I would have thought of, if not for this board's suggestions. so thanks!

mattbird:

Vaguely on topic I find the concept of designing a list to be any sort of 'tier' an odd concept.  If it is balanced and has built in weaknesses to compensate for powerful things (like expensive/ limited units or magic items etc), then there is no need to build lists around any sort of tier level.

Edit:
Damn, ninja'd on my posting.  You already answered it. ;)

Grimstonefire
yup- we're really just striving for a balanced list. I think too much emphasis is on the "mid-tier" comment.

Thommy H:

My feeling on army balance is that all armies should be equally balanced however, within an army list, there will be builds that are more appealing or more effective. The key to balance is making these builds harder to spot. For example, the two stank + war altar list is an abusive use of the otherwise well-balanced Empire list. This is typical - Thorek Gunline, Lizardman Stegadon etc. etc. Most lists have one really nasty build that shows up in tournaments. These lists are never very fluffy or interesting: the army list usually actively discourages using them.

Daemons, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts are different from this because the good builds are quite obvious. You don’t have to bend the list out of shape to find them.

Orcs and Goblins are the exact opposite: perfect balance has been achieved because no one combination of units appears more appealing than any other. Every list is different but, compared to the “optimum builds” they’re almost all at a disadvantage. Hence, O&G are considered weak, even though they do fine against the non-abusive builds from all the allegedly “overpowered” armies!

So, the thing to strive for is everything being as appealing as everything else in a given category. No one Lord should jump out, no one Core unit should be blatantly better than the others. A good army list results in every player’s army looking different!

mattbird:

Daemons, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts are different from this because the good builds are quite obvious. You don't have to bend the list out of shape to find them.

Thommy H
the big difference with these 3 is that virtually any build out of these 3 books results in an army that is more powerful than your opponents'. The "good builds" are obvious, because they are ALL good! :D

Otherwise I agree with everything else you posted.

Baggronor:

the big difference with these 3 is that virtually any build out of these 3 books results in an army that is more powerful than your opponents'. The "good builds" are obvious, because they are ALL good!
Its not that simple, really. Yes, the Ghoul spam/Great Wall of Nurgle/Kairos Scribes lists are all horrible but they are the abusive builds that Thommy is talking about. A non-silly VC or DE list is perfectly playable and comparable to many other armies. By 'silly' I mean such monstrosities as: VCs with 1200pts in characters and nothing but 3x10 Ghouls and a unit of Blood Knights with both ward banners, or the 60 Shade Death Star with ASF banner and 4 characters, both of which I have encountered. Armies that induce violence in otherwise peaceable nerds :) Sensible builds are generally fine to play against.

I'm not going to try and defend Daemons, as it cannot be done; and I hate the 'we're all friends now' attitude that GW has adopted concerning the 4 Gods.

wallacer:

I’m not really interested in tournaments so the extent to which the list is competitive in that environment is neither here nor there for me.

I find the idea of 4 DD odd, since that was really just a game mechanic fudge to compensate regular Dwarfs for their absence of dispel dice generating wizards. I think if CD are going to have regular casters they should not get the extra DD, and if that is a problem make Daemonsmiths regular hero level casters (perhaps fighty wizards like Chaos Sorcerors) or add in Hobgoblin Shamans (which would also help with the Hobgoblin themed lists).

So long as it is a fun, balanced list that is the main thing.

I’ll try to post some feedback on version 3 as soon as I can.

mattbird:

"I find the idea of 4 DD odd, since that was really just a game mechanic fudge to compensate regular Dwarfs for their absence of dispel dice generating wizards. "

100% agree.

I’m not going to try and defend Daemons, as it cannot be done; and I hate the ‘we’re all friends now’ attitude that GW has adopted concerning the 4 Gods.

Baggronor
don’t even get me started.

Alric:

I find the idea of 4 DD odd, since that was really just a game mechanic fudge to compensate regular Dwarfs for their absence of dispel dice generating wizards.  I think if CD are going to have regular casters they should not get the extra DD, and if that is a problem make Daemonsmiths regular hero level casters (perhaps fighty wizards like Chaos Sorcerors) or add in Hobgoblin Shamans (which would also help with the Hobgoblin themed lists).

So long as it is a fun, balanced list that is the main thing.

I'll try to post some feedback on version 3 as soon as I can.

wallacer
I agree I was thinking the same, daemomsmiths and shamans are a good way to go with this. I don't want a CD list that parallels a dwarf list.

The CD Sorcerers are supposed to be the pinnacle of the CD culture/society/hierarchy, they should be very powerful Chaos Sorcerer spell casters compared to others.

wallacer:

daemomsmiths and shamans are a good way to go with this.

Alric
Yeah, I think so.
The list could easily do what they did with Skaven where they have the big tough Grey Seers and then Warlock Engineers who have equipment that allows them to mimic low level spellcasters.

CD could easily pull the same trick. Have the big tough Sorcerors and Daemonsmiths who have "Daemonsmith only" equipment that allows them to function as magic users, perhaps via the power of imprisoned Daemons.

Failing that, just let Hobgoblin Shamans fill the role.

Grazhnakk:

One simple mechanic would be to remove the 4 DD standard, and add 1DD and 2DD to daemonsmiths and sorceror lords, respectively. Allow the daemonsmiths to take dispel scrolls (BTW: you really need to put points somewhere for the common magic items if possible, or at least point to a source for the points values. I know there’s copyright issues, but at least using the names to assign points value should be Fair Use. Or, at least state that you can’t take them.)

I’ve been playing a few games with the list, I’m reserving comments about playability until I collect some more information.

I can say that 6DD (using a sorceror lord) and the hexacon handled a magic-heavy high elf army rather well.

cornixt:

I looked at the forum and noticed a very similar discussion on the dispel dice that took place at about the same time.

mattbird:

Grazhnakk, thanks for testing- eager to hear your feedback.

yup, we went back and forth on the DD thing; ultimately Kevin ruled to keep it 4 DD base, but let Daemonsmiths get scrolls. I tested with 7 DD and 4 scrolls last night against Lizardmen, and totally shut him down.

There is a note on common magic items ion the book saying “see Warrior of Chaos”, but we should make it more prominent, if it’s easily missed.