Spears (& possibly additional HW) option for HG infantry
Hellcannon as 1 rare
Spear and bow options for Hobgoblin Hero
My comments on listed
1)Yes, but then give him the same statline as the current Dwarf hero
2) Lots of thing need changing
3)possibly to balance out improvements, but I would prefer points bump
4)I3 and +1pt I like, but not forced LA (needs to be an option for archers say)
5)Definitly, for CD characters and all BC; but optional
6)I think all HG cavalry as FC makes sense in their context in the army, they are cowardly harasers who can add a bit of punch to a combat rather than heavy cavalry. At their points cost I could se them being used in 2 or 3 (mabey even 4) ranks as heavy cavalry if not FC, and Hobgoblin wolfriders hitting hard with 5 static CR just seems wrong IMO
7)For CD & BC characters I agree
8)I think the current non-miniumum works fine and is nice and fluffy (CD would definitly make use of simply massed slaves as cannon fodder)
4)I3 and +1pt I like, but not forced LA (needs to be an option for archers say)
Lord Zarkov
I should have clarified.
Hobgoblin Warriors: Human stats with -1Ld (or Goblins with +1WS, +1I and no Fear Elf) starting equipment Light Armor and Hand Weapon - Can buy Spears, 2nd hand weapon and/or Shields - 4pts
Hobgoblin Archers: Same stats, stats equipment - bow and hand weapon, can buy Light Armor for +1pt (Possible addition if perhaps not for CD list as much as a spin-off list: 1 unit can buy skirmish, 1 unit can buy poisoned arrows) - 5pts
6)I think all HG cavalry as FC makes sense in their context in the army, they are cowardly harasers who can add a bit of punch to a combat rather than heavy cavalry. At their points cost I could se them being used in 2 or 3 (mabey even 4) ranks as heavy cavalry if not FC, and Hobgoblin wolfriders hitting hard with 5 static CR just seems wrong IMO
Lord Zarkov
Should work just like Goblins. You get your light armor automatically, but if you buy the shield you lose the Fast Calvary trait. Yes, Oglah Khan's boyz do not-- but they are a special unit that comes with a free character too. Hobgoblin Wolfriders should be primarilly archers. An upgraded warrior version can be made available as a Special Unit, but doesn't need to be available to the CD so much as a bonus unit if you play all HG (see here: https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/5506)
The Hobgoblins shouldn’t lose Fast Cavalry, as the RoR doesn’t. The reason for this is that they, being roughly human-sized, need much bigger and tougher Wolves (Gorgs?) to carry them, along with whatever meat, spare weapons, rags and shinies they happen to be carrying at the time. The Wolves can therefore support a light-armoured rider, unlike the sleeker, smaller wolves of the Goblins.
Earthshaker: 125 Points, Uses 5" Template to determine area of effect.
Bolt-Thrower: No change.
Bull Centaurs: Infantry Weapons.
Hellcannon: One Rare and One Special.
Hobgoblins and Wolfriders split into two seperate units with seperate min. unit sizes. Option for Spears. I3, +1 Point.
I’m glad to see so much discussion and I really like the fact that people are giving decent reasons. I like all of the suggestions… I can no longer remember the rest of what I was going to say. Damn.
The Hobgoblins shouldn't lose Fast Cavalry, as the RoR doesn't. The reason for this is that they, being roughly human-sized, need much bigger and tougher Wolves (Gorgs?) to carry them, along with whatever meat, spare weapons, rags and shinies they happen to be carrying at the time. The Wolves can therefore support a light-armoured rider, unlike the sleeker, smaller wolves of the Goblins.
Revlid
Except that if you remember that the Hobgoblin is larger, their armor, shields and weapons will be heavier too since they are built for human size. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that no other Fast Calvary unit in the game gets a save above 5+ except for Oglah Khan's group. It really wouldn't seem fair to offer that ability as a regular core unit and it isn't worth turning them into a special unit over either. Fast Calvary is primarily beneficial to archers anyway (an archer with no facing that can shoot you after fleeing that also gets a 4+ save is a bit much).
Hobgoblins should stay as fast cav, but if given light armour they lose it (same as gobbos, also mentioned above).
hal
Goblin Wolfriders don't lose it when they have light armor, they always have light armor. They lose it when they get shields.
Some people consider the Chaos Dwarf list to be broken, though not all. Here is a list of some issues that "non-Chaos Dwarf players" would like addressed.
My post from the Warhammer Forum follows.
Xander
Strange that I am considered to be a "non-Chaos Dwarf player", when I was the only one to give any decent suggestions to fix the list in that thread. And I've only been playing them for over a decade. I wonder how long real Chaos Dwarf players have been playing? :P
Anyways, I still stand by my suggestions. What I can add is that the Chaos Dwarf Hero should be a carbon copy of the Dwarf Thane, which means he gets T5 instead of his lowered LD, which is nice.
The recent rulings for the upcoming USGT should of course be standard practice for the RH list, even the one that nerfs the Black Orcs. However, while I think it's good to get something in return for the lost Lapping Round rule for the Sneaky Gits, I was personally thinking of an altogether different direction for the Sneaky Gits. Namely, a skirmishing unit. With two poisoned hand weapons and poisoned throwing knives. It's something to think about, at least.
Strange that I am considered to be a "non-Chaos Dwarf player", when I was the only one to give any decent suggestions to fix the list in that thread. And I've only been playing them for over a decade. I wonder how long real Chaos Dwarf players have been playing? :P
Lundi
You really don't endear yourself to anyone by claiming you are the only person with decent ideas.
Anyways, I still stand by my suggestions. What I can add is that the Chaos Dwarf Hero should be a carbon copy of the Dwarf Thane, which means he gets T5 instead of his lowered LD, which is nice.
Lundi
I can't imagine that anyone would really disagree that the Chaos Dwarf Lord and Hero should have identical stats as their normal Dwarven versions. The difference between the two is primarily culture, magic and tactics. Physically and psychologically they should be even.
Lapping Round rule for the Sneaky Gits, I was personally thinking of an altogether different direction for the Sneaky Gits. Namely, a skirmishing unit. With two poisoned hand weapons and poisoned throwing knives. It's something to think about, at least.
Lundi
Again, I think it is a pretty common censensus that Sneaky Gits should become skirmishers with two poisoned weapons. My version allows them to still remove a rank bonus from a unit they are flanking and allows optional throwing daggers (non-poisoned). But again, I think virtually everyone agrees with the first two points.
So... you really aren't saying anything original here and you've shown no indication that you are the only person whose ideas are to be considered decent.
Is it just me who noticed that this has turned from improving the RH list to completely changing it?
cornixt
Well, the base problem is that the RH list is a half-formed list that works, but doesn't provide the kind of variety and flexibility that SHOULD be provided by a race's army list. Every other list, to my understanding, has been completely redone, revamped and expanded 2-3 times since the RH list was created and that isn't even counting expansions such as Storm of Chaos that provide a whole list of new troops for specific armies. Point costs are wacky, Unit breakdown and equipment options are all wrong for any current-edition army list, Special Rules are two editions out of date, the Magic Item list is practically nonexistent...
So yeah.... its not about revising the RH list, we SHOULD be working out a totally new army book with the RH list as the basis.
While yes we need an army book, we also need RH rules to be clarified ala FAQ. Sort of like the US GT just released. Though even that misses a few issues.
—There are a number of things that do not sit well with me about the RH list. First and foremost the Orcs and Goblins. Referencing another army list is a spectacularly bad idea. Those entries need to be cut or replaced with Slave Orcs and Slave Goblins instead of referencing rules that are subject to change without notice. There is an anlogous problem wit hthe Hellcannon. That thing needs a significant overhaul to fit into the CD list.
—Black Orcs need to be cut, for the reasons mentioned above as well as a couple of others. Black Orcs in the 5th ed list were mercenaries: a really bad idea fluffwise for CDs who hate them for leading that very costly revolution.
—Sneaky Gitz reference a rule that does not exist any more. They need to be Skirmishers, it’s that simple. Well, no quite that simple; they should have an initiative of at least 3.
—Chaos Dwarf sorcerers are too cheap at 65pts each, having better Leadership and Toughness then other wizards is a huge advantage in their line of work.
—Blunderbusses need simplification. Elegance is beautiful. The fact that it does not follow normal rules is a huge red flag. Most broken things are ones that do not follow the rules (LOS for Thorek Ironbrow and former Forked Lightning, the previous Steam Tank, former Hellblasters, ratling guns, Salamanders, and some have argued that even cannons fit into this category).
—Bull Centaurs are glass cannons: give them great weapons and they chew through Ironbreakers, but with T4 and a 5+ save they die like flies to handguns. What they need is a “trample” (what I called “bull kick”) rule to stop them from getting that second attack with bonus Strength, and they also need to be more durable (eith T5 or Scaly Skin, maybe 5+). I am also a firm believer that BCs should slow down, because really their heavy armor should weigh as much as barding. In addition, bulls are not as fast as horses.
—There is a lot of other stuff I would like to see in the list, but for that see my thread on the list from the old GW forums.
I think all armour should be optional choices (from a converting standpoint). I’m feeling kinda annoyed that my CD warriors MUST take shields when I can’t even fit them on the models in an aesthetically pleasing manner.
