Grimbold Blackhammer:
During my last game with Chaos Dwarves, I played a really excellent veteran player and lost. I brought what I thought was a really hard list and being honest he pulled it apart pretty easily. When I lose with Chaos Dwarves, and I usually do against stronger players, it almost always happens in the same fashion. My units get isolated (which isn’t hard to do since we have so few units to deploy) and taken down individually. It’s taken me a while to find a way to articulate the issue but my problem, and I assume I’m not alone, is to figure out how to get my units to support each other.
I’ve tried Dwarves with Blunderbusses, Great Weapons, and Hand Weapons & Shields but simply put they cannot win on their own. Lore of Shadow is the great equalizer but we don’t have access to it. And without loading the unit full of characters, an expensive proposition, we have no way to make the unit more killy. ← I’m sure that’s a word! I’ve trolled through other “dwarf” forums as they have a similar play style and they have the same problem. I believe the inherent issue is the same - a very real lack of synergy between our units primarily derived from our low movement. Or to put it another way, when a unit gets into trouble, there’s no reliable way to send help. Our units are incredibly durable but small numbers means they can be easily overwhelmed. I come from an elvish background where dual-charges, flank charges, and even the occasional rear charge is the norm to break an enemy. Perhaps I haven’t adjusted my own tactics sufficiently to match the Chaos Dwarf meta?
I’m curious to see if others are suffering the same problem and if so, to what degree. Or if someone has found an suitable solution!
Gunnerson:
I have been pretty successful with a Dwarf army. My normal plan is to stick a solid anvil unit in the center and Bunker my Lord and BSB up in there to hold the center(in this case I plan to test this with GW IG). Ill run 1-2 units nearby to support and I WILL not move them apart these units must stay with and support the center. They are typicaly Quarrelers(sp?) and Warriors. Normaly I deploy them 10 wide 2-3 ranks deep to maximize the shooting and on the last possible moment I either reform them into blocks or move them into a way that they will redirect and hlod a charge with the plan of having my boss unit hit a flank. Im going to try it with Hobbos and Blunders. Next I try to use a Gyro for redirects,chaff or warmachines. In the Chaos dwarfs I hope to do this with 1-2 small blocks of Renders with GWs or Kahns on wolves. Lastly I try and hold a flank with an organ gun and then mix 2 bolt throwers or a stone thrower in amongst the rest of the units sence I am not doing a ton movment they are pretty well supported and typicaly to get at them you must fight the blocks. I imagine that a dreadquake with an Ogre can hold its own on a flank and that either a couple deathshreiker or magma cannon mixed in between the blocks should not need a ton of support.
rpitts2004:
Do you have the list so we can see it? And what army was the veteran player using?
KramDratta:
Do you have the list so we can see it? And what army was the veteran player using?
rpitts2004
+1
This would help a lot. Synergy is very important with Chaos Dwarfs, since as you mention our army is almost always out-numbered. Also, a few line describing deployment & turns would help us help you.
Geist:
Frankly, I believe there is no way to send support that will help out correctly.
Let me be very clear so we are all on the same page before some says something foolish like “send in bulls to help out the iron demon”.
When you move your hitter units forward, they are usually engaged with units that are so tough that any other unit is inferior.
Example:
Kadai goes up to attack chaos knights, what unit can you possible send to help him? Bulls will just add combat res, the iron demon if it can get there due to limited movement, will kill the knights but if it doesnt then it will get flanked and add combat res to the Kadai’s demon fall apart rules. The reverse side of this coin is lets say you send in the Kadai to help the iron demon, it can then be counter charged and same effect.
Now those are overly obvious examples so lets go with something more real world, because be honest some one is not going to let both the iron demon and the Kadai run free. There will be redirects and chaff units in the way. Lets say you send in a smaller more frail unit, but one that can run the blockade of chaff and redirects. Well what good is that unit going to do? Free up a iron demon from light cav that are making it so it cant break free? Great, but what about heavy cav? Khan? Nope, Wolf riders? Use up rare points? Sure maybe but still what will they do? Some but not enough.
Getting back to the OP and the topic. Ours must spend most of their lives on there own, rarely can you send support. Support is mainly suppose to come in the form of time on target arty. Out side of that its called good luck chuck and hope our beat stick units can live up there reps.
Fuggit Khan:
You mentioned that “My units get isolated (which isn’t hard to do since we have so few units to deploy) and taken down individually”…I think you’re quite right in that yes, we will often be outnumbered and easily overwhelmed. But I find that this is where Hobgoblin wolf raiders are an asset. There’s a reason they’re a rare unit choice, because of they’re value as fast cavalry to redirect an opponent. Even a lone Khan (or two) on a wolf can get the same result…so I think a good way to support our units is to simply try and redirect the opponents attention (and units) away from our guys for as many turns as possible. Force your opponent to redirect a number of his units away from your core units and that can help even out the numbers a bit.
cornixt:
You can think “How would I pick apart my CD army with my elves” and then create measures to prevent them from happening through army composition or deployment.
Grimbold Blackhammer:
Sorry for the delay…I got sent out to San Jose for the week =(
My usual 2,500 point list has a Prophet of Hashut, a Daemonsmith of Metal, a big block of Infernal Guard, a smaller block of Hobbos, 2 or 3 war machines one of which is usually a Hellcannon, and two fast units be that a K’daii and Centaurs, Iron Daemon and K’daii, 2 Iron Daemons…whatever. And I try and find points for at last one Hobgoblin hero on a wolf. The fast units advance, hold up something important, I shoot with everything until I get charged or can charge myself.
Do most folks just not move until turn 3 when the enemy is close? That’s about the only thing I havne’t tried (mostly because it sounds boring…).
Da Crusha:
Sorry for the delay...I got sent out to San Jose for the week =(
My usual 2,500 point list has a Prophet of Hashut, a Daemonsmith of Metal, a big block of Infernal Guard, a smaller block of Hobbos, 2 or 3 war machines one of which is usually a Hellcannon, and two fast units be that a K'daii and Centaurs, Iron Daemon and K'daii, 2 Iron Daemons...whatever. And I try and find points for at last one Hobgoblin hero on a wolf. The fast units advance, hold up something important, I shoot with everything until I get charged or can charge myself.
Do most folks just not move until turn 3 when the enemy is close? That's about the only thing I havne't tried (mostly because it sounds boring...).
Grimbold Blackhammer
I have a very similar problem. the last tournament I went to I decided not to play and instead watched a friend of mine that usually does pretty well with chaos dwarfs. I noticed he does stay back for a few turns and really utilizes the shooting phase more than I do. typically I like to rush into combat but it seems our lack of numbers really makes this an unwise decision.
Geist:
With our armies usually only having 1 main brick, you must wait until latter to engage with your big brick. Delaying things is the trick, and that trick must be used correctly so that the arty can do what we are know for. Terrorize the enemy and weaken them before we engage for the killing stroke.
Larendard:
Judging from my first experiences with normal dwarves, i think it is very important for us and our darker Brothers with the cool hats to stay put and let Magic & gunshots do the work. Dwarves aren’t that hard hitting and lack the power to stay alive against a lot of the enemies out there. Most other armies are either very fast, hard hitting and sometimes both - so we are bound to weaken them as much as possible before we get to close combat…