[Archive] Killer Skaven List no one can beat, I want to beat it

Mosk:

ok many of you may know the blog http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com. Well these are the guys at my local gaming club, and they like to make power lists. Here is a copy of about the list he runs with skaven, the first one only one person has won him with it, the second one is a little easier. I have never won against him using my counts, beasts of chaos chariot army, or my lizardmen, so Now that I am building my Chaos dwarfs, I wanna know how I can compete with this and not get slaughtered.

2250 Pts - Skaven Roster

1 Ikit Claw, Chief Warlock

General; Supercharged Warp-Power Accumulator; Upgraded Warp-Energy Condenser; Warp-Blades; Warplock Pistol; Immune to Psychology

1 Death Globes

1 Ikit’s Claw

1 Storm Daemon

1 The Foul Pendant

1 Warpstone Armor

1 2. Warp Lightning

1 Warlock Engineer

Hand Weapon; Supercharged Warp-Power Accumulator; Upgraded Warp-Energy Condenser; Warp-Blades

1 2. Warp Lightning

1 Assassin

Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Throwing Star; Poisoned Attacks; Scouts

1 The Gouger

25 Stormvermin

Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Heavy Armour; Shield

1 Fangleader

Hand Weapon; Halberd; Heavy Armour; Shield

1 Banner of the Four Black Winds

1 Ratling Gun Team

Ratling Gun; Skirmishers

25 Clanrats

Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

1 Clawleader

Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

1 Ratling Gun Team

Ratling Gun; Skirmishers

25 Clanrats

Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

1 Clawleader

Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

1 Ratling Gun Team

Ratling Gun; Skirmishers

10 Gutter Runners

Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Sling; Scouts; Skirmishers

10 Gutter Runners

Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Sling; Scouts; Skirmishers

7 Warplock Jezzails

Hand Weapon; Jezzail; Skirmishers

7 Warplock Jezzails

Hand Weapon; Jezzail; Skirmishers

1 Warp-Lightning Cannon

1 Warp-Lightning Cannon

With the above list, its those jezzails and lightnig cannons, they destroy me.

Now for anyone who wants to know, I think the list at this link would do the trick, now I am not asking help on list making, but just to let you know this is the list I will probably use. My Possible Army List

I need tactics for how to deal with those Jezzails and Lightning Cannons.

BilboBaggins:

Earth Shakers on the Jazzails and with luck get the shake to stop them and make the Lightning Cannons need a 4+ to shoot.

Hobgoblin Archers can be used to annoy crews of war machines, maybe even decrew them.

The rattling guns in my experience can be either deadly or blow up, love them doubles.

Do whatever you can to get on the flanks of those clan rats. Reduce their strength in numbers in ability. I tend to target shooting and magic against one unit of rats until they need to take a panic test. Then move to the next. If you are really worried about the Jazzails hit them with everything, but I would target big unit near them first.

Make sure that the opponent notes which unit has the assassin (piece of paper under each tray with one of them marked which has the assassin) so he doesn’t try to sneak it against you.

dedwrekka:

Lord on a Taurus can take out those cannons easily (if you charge them, they have to flee).Once he’s made those cannons run, he can jump over and hit jezzails, which you should be interrupting with Earthshaker fire.

Keep Blunderbusses on your corners to disrupt the inevitable gutter runner attacks (probably keeps the assassin in or near them to pop and disrupt your warmachines).

Alan the evil:

I don’t think it could be a good idea to field a great taurus vs 14 jezzail and 3 ratling… you gonna loose in one or two turn. Dropping him you don’t give to jezzail any good target.

sorcerer lord lvl 4 with lore of death could be a better choice: we can have two magic missiles (good even vs ratling and jeazzail) and a spell that can downgrade their Ld and this can be good: working with another 2 lvl 2 sorcerer with other magic missiles, Bolt thrower, death rocket, eartshaker and BB (this last unit must to be field as big as you can) you can easily destroy or panic skaven blocks in combo with those spells.
Mainly units that use templates (stone thorwers and Bb) work very well vs big blocks, their ratlings and skirmishers.

Very important are hobbos archers that could be a shield for your units vs ratlings and can shoot them before (range 24’’ vs 18’’).

BSB is always important in each CD army…

Hope to be helpfull

BilboBaggins:

Personally I wouldn’t shoot ratling guns with Archers because of the -1 to hit. Hit the big unit and make it take a panic test and if it runs the ratling gun will likely run too.

Border Reiver:

Taurus against Jezzails is not as bad as you’d think - you have the breath weapon and terror. Since Jezzails are usually on the flank and outside of the general’s Ld bubble and don’t benefit from Strength in Numbers they will likely book and run. the problem for you is that there are all those other shooting units nearby (ratling guns, etc. that are now in a positiion to take advantage of the really exposed lord and taurus.

BilboBaggins:

Jazzails never get strength in numbers because they are skirmishers. Make them disappear and units near them may run too.

Alan the evil:

Bilbo

To have a panic test a 25 models unit must to suffer 7 casualties.

How can I do that even with 20 archers?

During my first shot phase I’ve 5+ to hit : 6.66

4+ to wound: 3.33

vs clanrats (5+ AS) I gonna inflict 2.22 casualties

vs stormvermin (4+ AS) I gonna inflict 1.67 casualties

Instead vs ratling I have with 10 archers 6+ to hit : 1.66

4+ to wound 0.83

with 2 units of archers I could probably kill one ratling and, if I throw dices a little bit over average, I could kill 2 ratling…

And if archers gonna survive I still use them for bait and flee vs skaven infantry.

Border reiver

In first turn that great taurus gonna be in open space, he gonna suffer 14 x S6 hits with 4+ to hit (if I’m not closer than 18’’ from one of two jezzail unit - so 7 of them gonna have 3+ to hit): this means 4/5 average wounds. Even if I could panic / destroy one unit, the other gonna easily finish the work…

So I loose 400 pt (+100 for general) and skaven gonna loose 140 pt…

And I don’t wanna talk about our tactical lost compared to skaven’s one…

and jezzail can shoot always vs great taurus (they are skirishers - great taurus is large target)

Great taurus, if  he’s going to survive, could win alone, but usually he’s going to die before the end of 2 turns vs this skaven army in my opinion.

Baggronor:

To have a panic test a 25 models unit must to suffer 7 casualties.
With 2 units of archers I could probably kill one ratling and, if I throw dices a little bit over average, I could kill 2 ratling..
And if archers gonna survive I still use them for bait and flee vs skaven infantry.
Plus the unit won't even panic the ratling gun unless it flees through it, assuming it even fails the test. Its not like Skaven are scary in melee anyways. Plus, which is the better deal for your arrows: a handful of Skaven who won't do much, or a machine gun that will take ranks off your units at a time?
So I loose 400 pt (+100 for general) and skaven gonna loose 140 pt...
Great taurus, if he's going to survive, could win alone, but usually he's going to die before the end of 2 turns vs this skaven army in my opinion.
Yup. This doesn't even factor in any magic coming his way too :| Big monsters are a bad idea vs Skaven. Those 400pts would be far better spent on lots and lots of troops. CDs are one of the few armies that can outnumber Skaven thanks to all those cheap hobgoblins. The best way to stop them is not to have anything worth shooting visible. Who cares about STR 6 armour piercing if all it can hit is 2pt slaves? Masses of Hobgoblins (armoured, naked and bow-wielding varieties) with a solid CD centre (BSB and Banner of Slavery too) and plenty of magic and Earth Shakers are your best bet (keep your artillery out of range of the Jezzails). Take big units of CDs too, (warrior blocks of 25, BB units of 20, so you can take casualties). I would also say drop the death rockets. No point shooting it out with him, get him into combat with superior numbers and get those flank charges. Once they're flanked, Skaven start running, and its all downhill from there :)

He only has 3 block units? No Slaves? No Plague Monks/Censer Bearers? Its really not so bad. I played against a 21 jezzail monstrosity at the GT 2 years ago, with Plague Monks, Warp Cannons and 3 Engineers...fun :)

dedwrekka:

To have a panic test a 25 models unit must to suffer 7 casualties.
With 2 units of archers I could probably kill one ratling and, if I throw dices a little bit over average, I could kill 2 ratling..
And if archers gonna survive I still use them for bait and flee vs skaven infantry.
Plus the unit won't even panic the ratling gun unless it flees through it, assuming it even fails the test. Its not like Skaven are scary in melee anyways. Plus, which is the better deal for your arrows: a handful of Skaven who won't do much, or a machine gun that will take ranks off your units at a time?
So I loose 400 pt (+100 for general) and skaven gonna loose 140 pt...
Great taurus, if  he's going to survive, could win alone, but usually he's going to die before the end of 2 turns vs this skaven army in my opinion.
Yup. This doesn't even factor in any magic coming his way too :| Big monsters are a bad idea vs Skaven. Those 400pts would be far better spent on lots and lots of troops. CDs are one of the few armies that can outnumber Skaven thanks to all those cheap hobgoblins. The best way to stop them is not to have anything worth shooting visible. Who cares about STR 6 armour piercing if all it can hit is 2pt slaves? Masses of Hobgoblins (armoured, naked and bow-wielding varieties) with a solid CD centre (BSB and Banner of Slavery too) and plenty of magic and Earth Shakers are your best bet (keep your artillery out of range of the Jezzails). Take big units of CDs too, (warrior blocks of 25, BB units of 20, so you can take casualties). I would also say drop the death rockets. No point shooting it out with him, get him into combat with superior numbers and get those flank charges. Once they're flanked, Skaven start running, and its all downhill from there :)

He only has 3 block units? No Slaves? No Plague Monks/Censer Bearers? Its really not so bad. I played against a 21 jezzail monstrosity at the GT 2 years ago, with Plague Monks, Warp Cannons and 3 Engineers...fun :)


Baggronor
You're still dealing with ratling guns, which can take out units on their own, Warp Lightning Cannons, which can drop your machines and your people in one shot, and jezzails, which can take out your heavily armored units, or just concentrate fire and make one unit run. You need something to take out those units. The best way to stop the jezzails, is to prevent them from being able to fire. Earthshakers do that with ease, and without even having to land on them. While the earthshakers are stopping the jezzails, the lord or wolf riders can jump on the two cannons. As soon as he gets near the cannons, they'll run. The jezzails never have a chance of becoming a problem.

grupax:

first ikith claw ain’t that legal altoghether :stuck_out_tongue:

second the gouger is clan moulder only if i’m not mistaken

third, he’s got nearly no ld…

kill 2 jezzails and they panic :p, or a burning head, or terrorcauser

as for the wlc, if you charge it, he must flee as charge reaction, even wolfriders can kill it, ( just keep general near so they dont panic)

Alan the evil:

If we drop great taurus, jezzail became our last problem

baggronor said

Who cares about STR 6 armour piercing if all it can hit is 2pt slaves?
that’s the point!

and also grupax
kill 2 jezzails and they panic :p, or a burning head,
it could be enough a magic missile…

with archers we can take care of ratlings…

the only problem remaining are warp cannons: earthsakers could be an answer? not the definitive one, but  they work enough…

we’ve got good answers against this kind of army…

Baggronor:

You're still dealing with ratling guns, which can take out units on their own,
Hence the Hobgoblin archers who make the ratling guns their top priority.
Warp Lightning Cannons, which can drop your machines and your people in one shot,
To be honest, as long as you don't give them nice easy targets (like a Taurus) the cannons aren't all that bad. Your characters get a 'Look out, Sir!' in units and if your war machines are deployed quite far back, he will struggle to roll high enough to hit them (8D6 range on average will give him roughly 28"). Then he is looking at rolling a 6, 8 or 10 for the strength. Assuming it doesn't misfire and shoot his own guys in the arse :) If you really need to get them, then magic is probably the best bet, although the fact the cannons need no LoS is problematic. That or a long range charge from Wolfboyz or a BC hero (warp cannons must always flee charges, not good when they like to set up in terrain and count as a chariot).
and jezzails, which can take out your heavily armored units, or just concentrate fire and make one unit run.
Hence why you take large units, plenty of slaves and Banner of Slavery. That way you can get into range for your spells/melee without your army falling apart :)

I also recommend plenty of Blunderbusses :)

BilboBaggins:

To be honest, as long as you don't give them nice easy targets (like a Taurus) the cannons aren't all that bad. Your characters get a 'Look out, Sir!' in units and if your war machines are deployed quite far back, he will struggle to roll high enough to hit them (8D6 range on average will give him roughly 28"). Then he is looking at rolling a 6, 8 or 10 for the strength. Assuming it doesn't misfire and shoot his own guys in the arse :) If you really need to get them, then magic is probably the best bet, although the fact the cannons need no LoS is problematic. That or a long range charge from Wolfboyz or a BC hero (warp cannons must always flee charges, not good when they like to set up in terrain and count as a chariot).

Baggronor
hmmm.

I just thought of something. If you have line of site of them of turn on declare a charge on them with anything you have, it'll fail but they have to run.

I know cheesy and not in the spirit of the rules. :)

Unfortunately they usually set them up so you can't see them until you are on top of them.

Baggronor:

If you have line of site of them of turn on declare a charge on them with anything you have, it'll fail but they have to run.
Yup :) technically its legal, though its also mega lame. Only do it if you play someone who deserves it (and yes, they do exist :))

BilboBaggins:

But it would be funny against the ones that truly deserve it.

Turn One:

You: Oh my Chaos Dwarfs are charging that Warp-Lightning Cannon and the Hobgoblins are charging the other.

Him: You know you can’t make it.

You: How do you know, I haven’t measured yet.

Him: You are Kidding.

You: Hope, I’ve declared a charge what’s your response.

Him:

grupax:

well actually overestimating over that much would be cheating, even according to the rules.
(btw, playing this way would even negate the disciple rule for cencer bearers)
if you tried this, i’d say go and spite a steamtank (after all… it’s a warmachine)

TLTG:

Yes, you’re actually only allowed to declare a charge when it’s considered to be reasonable.  The TO and judges are the final word on whether or not your charge is considered unreasonable.

If you want to charge them, just try to hide some wolf riders or bull centaurs behind a piece of terrain, and then either charge them (if you have line of sight) or hang out behind them.  Even better if you’ve got Unseen Lurker or something.  In fact, if it were me, I think I would pick Lore of Shadow on my lord choice to launch units and characters at their artillery or force them to divide fire.  The thing about an army that one dimensional is that as soon as you hit their weakness, they fall apart like wet tissue paper.  You’re essentially playing against a bad list that preys on bad players and bad dice.  As mentioned before, anything that causes panic, anything that causes terror, anything that causes casualties from shooting, and blocking off the shots at your important units by throwing slaves in front of them.  It’s the Chaos Dwarf way!

I’m baffled as to how this player plans to handle things like summon-happy vampires, demons (specifically nurgle demons or slaanesh leadership bombs), or healthy magic phases.

Also, as the above is really more general stuff, and not specific to your list - You’re in for a world of hurt because you’re super static with all the guns.  Try to get lucky with earthshakers, win the first turn, and hide your valuable units behind slaves.  If you can get a table side without terrain features for the gutter runners to hide in, it’ll make you immeasurably better.  I can’t stress enough though that down the road you should cut an earthshaker for a unit of bull centaurs and find some space for some hobbo wolf riders.  I won’t lie, mine run all the time from the dumbest things, and they never seem to earn their points back, but that’s not their job.  They are speedy, they are somewhat resilient to shooting, and they hassle chargers, missile troops, lone characters (wizards, anyway…) and block marches and charges.  They would be super useful here, as they can hassle all the artillery, randomly fire bows at small units and make them run away, and if necessary make a speedy retreat to defend your war machines from gutter runners.

Baggronor:

I'm baffled as to how this player plans to handle things like summon-happy vampires, demons (specifically nurgle demons or slaanesh leadership bombs), or healthy magic phases.
I was also wondering this :) My vamps love Skaven, Wind of Undeath rocks against ratling guns

dedwrekka:


If we drop great taurus, jezzail became our last problem

baggronor said
Who cares about STR 6 armour piercing if all it can hit is 2pt slaves?
that's the point!

and also grupax
kill 2 jezzails and they panic :p, or a burning head,
it could be enough a magic missile...

with archers we can take care of ratlings...
the only problem remaining are warp cannons: earthsakers could be an answer? not the definitive one, but  they work enough...

we've got good answers against this kind of army...


Alan the evil
He can jump on a hill, or even move up within range of your warmachine (likely on a hill or with clear LoS) and pick you off. No warmachines, that many can pick apart your heavily armored Chaos Dwarf core.