[Archive] Killer Skaven List no one can beat, I want to beat it

dedwrekka:

If you have line of site of them of turn on declare a charge on them with anything you have, it'll fail but they have to run.
Yup :) technically its legal, though its also mega lame. Only do it if you play someone who deserves it (and yes, they do exist :))


Baggronor
Pretty messed up tactic, though, if he's pulling the SAD (That's Skaven/Shooting Army of Death) and you're playing with a bunch of self proclaimed power gamers, it'll come in handy. Though that one made the WLC useless as soon as it came out.
first ikith claw ain't that legal altoghether :p
As legal as Chaos Dwarfs.
second the gouger is clan moulder only if i'm not mistaken
Nope, it's a general magic weapon. Only moulder only weapon is the things-catcher.
I'm baffled as to how this player plans to handle things like summon-happy vampires, demons (specifically nurgle demons or slaanesh leadership bombs), or healthy magic phases

TLTG
Vamps: Take out the Vamp
Two step process, one phase (If you're medium lucky). Magic Vamp unit to be sure. Shooting Phase: Ratling gun(s) & Jezzails fire at vampire's unit, (basically until it kills off enough of it). WLCs take aim on the vampire.

Magic Phases, he's got defence. Those Warplocks (including ikkit) are wizards even though they don't know spells, so generate dispel and power dice as per their levels. He's got as much defense as any medium magic army.

Demons, same way you deal with anything, send in slaves (And use the scouting gutter runners) to slow down the already slow nurgle units, and fire, fire, fire!

Baggronor:

Vamps: Take out the Vamp
Two step process, one phase (If you're medium lucky). Magic Vamp unit to be sure. Shooting Phase: Ratling gun(s) & Jezzails fire at vampire's unit, (basically until it kills off enough of it). WLCs take aim on the vampire.
A proper dirty VC player (not like me :)) will have a decent bunker, well hidden. I would have the Wristbands of Black Gold (3+ ward vs shooting) and some would take the Hoff, so it'd have to be some damn lucky shot. Thats if I don't raise a squillion zombies to block the ratling guns too, while my Fel Bat squadron (and I mean squadron, Summon Creatures ftw) goes for the Jezzails turn 2. And Wind of Undeath will affect his weapon teams too. Not to mention the ethereal Black Knights are rather fond of cannons hiding in woods :)

TLTG:

Vamps: Take out the Vamp
Two step process, one phase (If you're medium lucky). Magic Vamp unit to be sure. Shooting Phase: Ratling gun(s) & Jezzails fire at vampire's unit, (basically until it kills off enough of it). WLCs take aim on the vampire.
That's pretty idealistic.  As Baggronor said, a vampire player who knows what they're doing will put a lord in a unit of something they can raise, and put zombies in your fire lanes so you can't aim that way.  If your lord were riding a zombie dragon or something I could see it because it would take significantly less shooting, but let's be realistic here.
Magic Phases, he's got defence. Those Warplocks (including ikkit) are wizards even though they don't know spells, so generate dispel and power dice as per their levels. He's got as much defense as any medium magic army.
Heh.  Right.  Okay, go ahead and try to stop me with 5 dispel dice and no scrolls.
Demons, same way you deal with anything, send in slaves (And use the scouting gutter runners) to slow down the already slow nurgle units, and fire, fire, fire!
This...  is remarkably wrong.  My apologies if I come across harsh but this is pretty far from accurate.  For starters, the list given has no slaves.  Secondly, Nurgle demons specifically will run units of swarm bases for their skirmishing 360 degree line of sight.  Your gutter runners will wind up fighting them instead of hassling the main core units, and they will shamble up to you at the same speed as, well, everybody who doesn't have pointy ears.
Also, the slaves would be a TERRIBLE idea, as you'd only activate Epidemius earlier.  Plaguebearers aren't exactly killing machines, but when you let them wound you with 50% of their attacks, you're going to lose.  The name of the game here is avoiding getting in to combat with them unless you're going to sustain little to no casualties.
Third, actual fire would be wonderful.  Regular shooting through a 5+ ward and a 4+ regen is woefully ineffective however.  
And against the Slaanesh LD bomb list?  They will close the gap to your ratillery by turn two, and will almost certainly be getting +1 to their roll for the first turn.  Do you think you can kill the entire army with stand and shoot reactions on turn two?  Because if not, you're going to lose and lose bad.

dedwrekka:

Vamps: Take out the Vamp
Two step process, one phase (If you're medium lucky). Magic Vamp unit to be sure. Shooting Phase: Ratling gun(s) & Jezzails fire at vampire's unit, (basically until it kills off enough of it). WLCs take aim on the vampire.
That's pretty idealistic.  As Baggronor said, a vampire player who knows what they're doing will put a lord in a unit of something they can raise, and put zombies in your fire lanes so you can't aim that way.  If your lord were riding a zombie dragon or something I could see it because it would take significantly less shooting, but let's be realistic here.

TLTG
Sorry, but isn't putting anything in the way of the guns a mistake? Admittedly, it's been a while since I played against a VC opponent, but I've seen enough of them lose because they kept raising small units that got shot to pieces, and thus gave 50vps for a max of 28 points worth of models (If just using Raise Dead).

It might also be worth it, just to see their look, to ask if the vampire is wearing armor :idea

TLTG:

I will happily give you 50 victory points (or 100, or 500!) if it means my vampire lord doesn’t die and my army doesn’t crumble. If you’re wasting your time shooting zombies that cost me next to zero resources to create, you’re not shooting my fell bats, black knights, blood knights, varghulf, cairn wraiths, bat swarms, dire wolves, or winged vampires whose job it is to go kill all your guns while you try to focus on my general.

Not to mention the horde of undead that will eventually make its way to your battle line and will have its way with you. Again, bad leadership on everything except the clanrat units, mixed with fear/terror causers. Bad times.

Joshmohr:

I’d earth shaker the artillery, and then send in my taurus to destroy the cursed Ikit!

Baggronor:

Sorry, but isn't putting anything in the way of the guns a mistake?
Zombies exist solely to be put in the way :) its what they do.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I played against a VC opponent, but I've seen enough of them lose because they kept raising small units that got shot to pieces, and thus gave 50vps for a max of 28 points worth of models (If just using Raise Dead).
Not when you use Summon Undead Horde to raise 5D6 of them in a nice long line :) and then add to them with invocation :) etc. The skaven dude has 5 DD and no scrolls, he may as well say 'Do what you want' against a decent VC list.

Skaven Lord Vinshqueek:

@Mosk:

To be honest, aside from the fact the list being (technically) illegal due to Ikit Claw not being an official special character (as it was only listed in a Citadel Journal when even the 7th edition hadn’t been released yet), I don’t find it to be that nasty as the writer from the blog lets it appear to be… Yes, it has a lot of shooting, but in the end that will be the only thing where the real threat comes from.

I have used Ikit Claw on various occassions and it is basically a downgraded Warlord with non-combat equipment, that can cast a HELL of a lot of magic. (You don’t even want to know how vicious that 3d6 Warp-Lightning spell can be :o ). The trick for dealing with that is by making sure that you negate his magic as much as possible, which can be done by taking more mages, several dispel scrolls, or having the unit he is in flee due to magic missiles/ artillery… Once he’s running, he can’t cast and should he ever get in combat, your opponent will most likely decline any challenges, due to a low amount of attacks Ikit Claw has in combination with a low weapon skill as well.

Clanrats are in combat absolutely no match for Chaos Dwarves (or anything else, for that matter). Once you get into combat with them, you are (in all cases) last to hit, but when you do, you’ll hit those Skaven easier and harder… The Stormvermin from his list are absolutely ridiculous! The Banner of the Four Black Winds??? I understand he wants to keep flying monstrosities away, but if that’s all he wanted to do, he could just as well use a BSB and save himself the points he now invests in a hideously expensive unit!

The Gutter Runners have a truely strange setup, cause, well… SLINGS??? becomes somewhat flabbergasted… ‘Why?’ is the only thing I can say to comment on that, as that is absolutely the worst kind of ranged attack you can give a mobile unit. Sure, they might have ballistic skill four, but when moving and taking range into account, you still have a hard time hitting your targets… Perhaps he will eventually have some luck with it, but I don’t find those units to be the scare of their opponents.

The real danger will come, for most armies, from the 2x7 Warplock Jezzails and 2x1 Warp-Lightning Cannons. Both have a (fairly) long range and can be devestating for well-armoured troops. However, neither can do well in combat, so fast cavalry (while having to endure something of a beating) tend to be a decent solution to this.

What this list lacks is (i) slaves, and (ii) flankers… It can hit hard, but definitely is NOT invincible.

Death Rockets and (especially) Earth Shakers are a dead give-away against this list. However, I would not use the Great Taurus and simply have your whole army on foot.

Greetz

dedwrekka:

Sorry, but isn't putting anything in the way of the guns a mistake?
Zombies exist solely to be put in the way :) its what they do.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I played against a VC opponent, but I've seen enough of them lose because they kept raising small units that got shot to pieces, and thus gave 50vps for a max of 28 points worth of models (If just using Raise Dead).
Not when you use Summon Undead Horde to raise 5D6 of them in a nice long line :) and then add to them with invocation :) etc. The skaven dude has 5 DD and no scrolls, he may as well say 'Do what you want' against a decent VC list.


Baggronor
Got anything to stop them from shooting on hills?

Baggronor:

Got anything to stop them from shooting on hills?
10-20 Jezzails on a hill are hitting on 5s at long range, so thats not many dead dead guys. Certainly less than would get raised up in the following turn.
Most likely fel bats get to them on turn 2/3. To be honest, with BS3 they are a relatively low priority unless you have several expensive targets for them, like knights or a Varghulf.
Ratling Guns and Engineers are the worry; I don't see them being on hills very often, and their range is much more manageable.
SLINGS???
Who the hell chooses slings over throwing stars :)

dedwrekka:

Who the hell chooses slings over throwing stars :)

Baggronor
There's actually a couple huge threads on it over on the Underempire
http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=20226
http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=20238

Skaven Lord Vinshqueek:

True enough, but there’s just so much you can take into account when approaching such a question mathematically.

With Night Runners, I can understand that you’d consider Slings, due to the fact that you can buy them in packs of five and hold them back in order to protect the Warp-Lightning Cannon… However, Gutter Runners/ Tunnel Runners need to use their mobility to a far greater extent. (Well, in my book, that is). As such, I find using Slings on Gutter Runners not only making them hideously expensive, but a bit of an odd choice as well.

Of course, seeing the army that guy built, it might not surprise me if he just uses them as another missile unit as well and simply keep his entire line static and magic/ shoot his opponent to death.

Greetz

Baggronor:

With Night Runners, I can understand that you'd consider Slings
Ahh of course, I was automatically just thinking of Gutter Runners. Its been a good 10 years since I fielded a Skaven army :)

Grazhnakk:

How good are you with guessing range? If you are, an earthshaker and two death rockets will handle most of his army. Target his blocks of troops, not his firebase. The real threat in his army is the ratling guns and magic - and they’ll be in the front lines to bring the guns and warp lightning to bear.

Don’t field large targets, and run units of 15-20 troops. The lightning cannon won’t do much damage (one good shot every 4 turns, so with 2 cannons, you can expect 3 good shots in the game) and the jezzails, even 14 strong, will be good for 3 or 4 wounds/turn. While this can add up, you want to rush his blocks of troops to minimize the effect of his ratling guns.

With three stone throwers and guess-range practice, that’s one solid hit every turn on average, plus you’re stopping the ratling guns from shooting on your approach. One solid hit = panic check every turn. Break his line up, and the game is yours.

Use hobbo units to draw out charges and expose flanks, and hit with great-weapon wielding dwarfs.

If you want to go magic-heavy, target the ratling guns with magic missiles, and units with panic-causing attacks. Again, break their line. Psychology is Skaven’s weakness. Break them, and their chance to rally goes down a lot. Blunderbusses help here, too.

Once you’ve got the line softened up and the ratling guns disabled, move your artillery to his firebase. This should be turn 4 or 5, if all goes well.

Every army has its foil, and SAD gunlines hate area template weaponry, which is what our Dawi Zharr are best at. Apply judicious pressure, and you’ll find his rats running scared rather quickly.

Ubertechie:

Honestly this army is not that hard to de-construct once you kill the toys it is just a bunch of rats.

Take 4 sorcerers - go with lore of fire on all of them - target the ratling guns and the jezails with them - that way you avoid the negative penailties to shooting and d6 str4 hits really ruins their day (he may be able to stop this for 1 turn but not for many more)

Take death rockets and earth shakers - he will have a lot of bodies and you should hit something and skaven hate panic test, plus the disruption to his movement and to his shooting will really cause him issue.

Dont take any high value targets as this is what WLC’s and Jezzails are made to hit so you decrease their effectiveness by making it hard for them to get their points back.

Hobgoblins are your friends here - ranked units to counter his numbers and to screen the CD’s and wolfriders to threaten his flanks

Hope that helps

BilboBaggins:

Simple an effective, I like.

Ubertechie:

Bilbo

Its usually the best way