First list ever and I think it’s probably pretty cookie cutter but here it goes.
Sorcerer-Prophet (400 )
-level 4 Hashut
-Mask of the Furnace
-The Other Trickster’s Shard
-Blood of Hashut
Infernal Castellan (205 )
-Black Hammer of Hashut
-Talisman of Endurance
-Potion of Speed
Daemonsmith Sorcerer (155 )
-level 2 Fire
chills between magma cannons
24 Infernal Guard (464 )
Prophet goes here
24 Infernal Guard (335 )
-Banner of Swiftnes
BSB goes here
6 Bull Centaur Renders (325 )
Magma Cannon (xxx )
Magma Cannon (xxx )
K’Daai Destroyer (xxx )
Magma cannons will get put down first in the middle. Daemonsmith will go between them when characters get dropped. I’ll place the IG on either side of them next. Last up I’ll look for which flank is weaker (if I can tell by that point) and put the K’daai and BC there so I have one incredibly strong flank. I know unit champions aren’t the most efficient ways to spend points but I was at 2450 before the IG champs and the BC command and couldn’t really buy anything else with the 50 points.
It’s probably worth mentioning that even though it’s just a game I get stupidly competitive when I play against my friend (because he get’s the same way. We’re both really stubborn and butt heads but it’s all in good fun ) He plays a NASTY TK list that runs 2 sphinxes, a heirotitan, a crap ton of archers, a casket, a unit of the necroknights, and on 1 flank he charges with 6 stupidly strong chariots. I think the K’daai is a pretty solid solution to the flank but I don’t know if the rest of my list could handle the rest of his list.
Any comments/criticism are much appreciated. Also this is intended to be an all-comers list, not just to beat the silly TK
Shameless bump in hopes that my first ever CD list will get some advice
Shameless bump in hopes that my first ever CD list will get some advice
Can't go wrong with it really. You've got the destroyer and two magma cannons for damage, two tough infantry blocks to take the damage and a nice meaty lump of bull centaurs to throw around. The character loadouts look good for both protection and damage output.
I think you've got the hang of this Legion of Azgorh!
All I can recomend is maybe getting crown of command on your prophet to make two stubborn blocks. Don't know what you would want to drop though.
Cool thanks, I just wanted to make sure that nothing went horribly wrong
I’m having a hard time imagining Blunderbusses in a “competitive” list. Fun and friendly, by all means… but those vast amount of points that you’ll only realistically ever get to use in one stand-and-shoot (and IMO isn’t likely to be particularly effective even then, though I can’t deny there is potential) just seems incredibly unlikely to be very points-efficient, to me.
If it was me, I’d rather save the points on Blunderbusses, the unit champions you’ve already mentioned, and the level 2, and that’s plenty of points for a whole 'nother unit. Or a unit plus the Crown of Command, like has been suggested already - two big stubborn units seems more useful to me, than one big stubborn unit and one big really expensive unit with a very short-ranged shooting attack (but which isn’t stubborn).
But that’s just what I’d do. Aside from the Blunderbusses this all looks fairly sane to me. And if you can make the Blunderbusses work, they certainly do have potential.
Blunderbusses are able to pull insane stunts, as long as the unit has more than 20 members it is virtually immune to single unit charges. Pop two light cavalry wolf rider units in front of it, flee any charge and leave the enemy unit stranded in front of your firepower, then in your turn your wolf riders rally (-> voluntary flight) and move in front of the blunderbusses again, while your blunderbusses shred the opponent a new one. Repeat until the fast cavalry is gone for good, then get a stand-and-shoot.
While blunderbusses may “malfunction” (ie only one shot, bad hit/wound rolls, etc) the opponent has to calculate the opposite: What if the BBs get 3 shots? That in itself is pretty powerful, as it forces the opposing player to “overcommit” against them. Personally, I use 28+ w/ stubborn and movement banner (for better reforms). Together with the Ash Storm spell my blunderbusses are even able to defeat (read: wipe out) the dreaded ogre “fat bus” (12+ iron guts /w character models).
I guess I’m just struggling to imagine any situation where any unit my opponent cares about, stands within 12" of a 460+ point unit of Blunderbusses plus two 72+ point units of Wolf Raiders. That’s 600 points for the tactic you’re describing… and there are so many counters (flanking, charging with two or more units, any magic item that affects shooting, staying more than 15" away so you’re out of range even if you move…) that it seems a lot of points for an uncertain payoff. I mean, 325 points for a Destroyer, fine. 600 points for Blunderbusses plus attendant Wolf Riders? That’s… brave.
I also somewhat disagree with the idea that it’s “virtually immune” to single unit charges (even ignoring the fact that you didn’t specify “from the front”). Chaos Knights would dispute that for example - even if you roll a 3 for the number of shots, and you’ve 30 models in the unit all able to fire (so that’s two ranks of fifteen!), you’re only likely to kill two, maybe three Knights. And you can get a lot of Chaos Knights for the price of 30 Blunderbusses. Likewise anything else with a decent armour save (Knights of all flavours, Chosen, Black Orcs, etc etc) - you’ll kill some through volume of fire but they’ll have plenty left to be an effective unit.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, Blunderbusses aren’t terrible full stop, after all, even once the enemy charges them they’re still Infernal Guard (T4 with 3+/6++ and good Ld being the main factors in their favour). They’re just terrible for the points cost. Which means I personally struggle to see them having a place in a “competitive” list. But, yeah, others may get more out of them…
The way i see it - you do buy IG anyways. Now, consider the blunderbuss an upgrade, another artillery piece for 180 points (for 30 BBs, f. ex.). These 180 points buy you something to wipe certain units out in one volley and seriously hurt even the hardest units out there. While another flame cannon is cheaper - it is also more prone to misfire, war machine hunters and counter artillery fire. To remove this piece of artillery from the game, you have to kill 30 stubborn iron breakers (which you buy anyways, as mentioned already).
If the opponent wants to win, s/he has to go toe to toe with that unit in most cases (because this is where your points are), which makes it easy for you to avoid flank or rear charges. The range of the BBs is long enough to make the enemy unit(s) suffer through at least 2 volleys (reform + movement 4 + 12 inch range): If the opponent wants to be sure to be safe, s/he has to place his/her units 17 inches away, which is not a certain charge even for cavalry. Besides, you have other units of your own to block enemy units from advancing in multiples or from the flanks - or play games with them with ash storm/light cav/diverters. For a standard infantry unit (you mention black orcs) it has to be within 10-12 inches to get a charge off, which means the unit is eating at least 2 volleys (one in your turn, the other as a stand and shoot reaction), without any “bells and whistles” (light cav, diverter, ash storm, failed charge). Barring extreme bad luck, this gives you 60 hits, which translate into 30 wounds (against black orcs) before armour saves, so 20 dead black orcs (if upgraded w/ shields). How many black orcs are there already? And how expensive is this unit compared to your blunderbusses? So maybe 10-20 make it into close combat with 30 iron breakers if they make their panic check.
Meanwhile your magma cannons and the destroyer decimate other units at will. I’m sure your prophet does his share, too and your other units stand ready to counter flank charge/block/divert/etc.
At first, i was very sceptical of them, too - but after 20 or so games they are feared even more by my opponents than the destroyer, which is fairly easy to deal with once you know what you’re doing (i say “fairly” easy - it is still very well worth it’s points!). Just keep their flanks clear and don’t be afraid to shuffle 2 inches backwards if needed.
The hardest build for chaos dwarfs is, IMO, 2 stubborn units of blunderbusses, 2 strength 5 templates, and the rest fire demons. Not a lot of fun to play against.
PS: A wolf rider unit is 65 points, a well sized unit of BBs is 551 points. A 40 strong black orc unit is 555 points + magic banner. The outcome is a foregone conclusion in favor of the chaos dwarfs - unless your opponent seriously outplays you, and then s/he deserves the win wholeheartedly.
I guess it’s certainly true that you will be taking IG anyway. So from that point of view, you’re not spending 500+ points on Blunderbusses; only 180ish to upgrade models you have to take in any case. I suppose if you look at it like that the points outlay isn’t so bad.
I remain unconvinced for myself; I just can’t get excited about 12" S3 for the points you pay (special rules notwithstanding). But I can understand the point you’re making and can see how you can make it work for you.
I guess it's certainly true that you will be taking IG anyway. So from that point of view, you're not spending 500+ points on Blunderbusses; only 180ish to upgrade models you have to take in any case. I suppose if you look at it like that the points outlay isn't so bad.
I remain unconvinced for myself; I just can't get excited about 12" S3 for the points you pay (special rules notwithstanding). But I can understand the point you're making and can see how you can make it work for you.
It really is a matter of either consolidating or spreading the wealth. That 180 points spent on upgrading the HW/Shield IG to Blunderbuss definitely makes them better. However, you have to ask yourself if it makes the army better as a whole. Personally, I try to build armies that will perform the best in a tournament setting which means it needs to be as flexable is possible. I'll be playing 5 games against random opponents, on random boards, with a different scenario each game. For instance, lets say you spend that 180 points on two Deathshriekers or one Hellcannon (obviously you'll have to come up with 20 or 25 points respectively) instead of the Blunderbuss upgrade. In my opinion, two deathshriekers are going to provide a level of shooting that the blunderbuss simply can't provide and are much more flexible. They can reach pretty much the whole table and they can either be used to kill Rank n File or take out big things like hydras, stegadons, etc. Blunderbuss are just so limited on what they're able to shoot at and can be avoided to a certain degree. The downside is that your opponent will find it easier to get those points from the deathshriekers than they can by having to take out the whole BB unit. Basically, it looks like most of the lists that have had success all have these elements in them:
Level 4 Sorceror Prophet (75-100 magic items)
Daemonsmith (5 - 30 points magic items)
Castellen BSB (60 - 75 points magic itmes)
24 - 29 Infernal guard unit 1
24 - 29 Infernal guard unit 2
1 unit of 4 - 6 K'daai Fireborn or Bull Centaur Renders
1 magma Cannon
1 K'daai Destroyer
If you're playing with 2500 points that leaves about 400 - 450 points to buy other stuff. Almost everyone will buy another war machine (starting at 100 for a deathshreiker all the way up to 315 for a skullcracker). That pretty leaves all of us with only another 150 - 350 points to spend on that one extra thing. That extra thing is going to be:
Another War Machine
Another unit or two (two if its hobgoblins, one if something else)
Upgrades to what you already have (either IG upgrades, making the existing units bigger or putting Hellbound on everything).
To be honest, most of our armies are going to be pretty similar except for that last choice.
Im pretty much sold. gonna try blunderbuss’ with the HGWR support. I wanted to use Blunderbuss before but they are sooo expensive they never stay in the final list.
those are some good points.
I’m really coming round to the points costs of Infernal Guard ranged weaponry. I’m going to be trying out Stubborn units of 20-30 with Fireglaives and Blunderbusses in two ranks which reform once they’re charged. I might see if I can make the Wolf Raider tactic work as well, it sounds very good in theory.
With over 20 Blunders and re-rolls to wound they are a daunting target for Sphinx’s especially with the multishots and AP as Sphinx’s rely on their high toughness with the re-rolls and multishots can help mitigate. I’ve had a horde of 30 Blunderbuss’s do wonderful things. The look on an opponents face when he fails a crucial charge roll and you still get your stand and shoot with them is just wonderful.
Overall a very solid list and i’m liking the BSB build with the Black Hammer.
A question, who usually gets the better of the magic battle between you and the TK list?