[Archive] Lvl 4 on What with What Lore?

Archive [Archive] Tactics, Strategy & Battle Reports
1

Groznit Goregut:

Hi All,

I got quite excited about the new book a few months ago, but promptly ran out of money. I’ve since traded and swindled and sold slaves to get enough Chaos Dwarfs to get going! So, I’m curious as to what is the best way to kit out a lvl 4 on beasty?

I will say that I am planning on going with an army that is:

2 x 50 or so Hobgoblins with bows and shields

25 Chaos Dwarfs with shields, full command, and banner of Slavery to keep those Hobs ItP! I will nestle this unit between the other two.

BSB goes in the CD unit with defensive and offensive magic items

lvl 1 demonsmith near war machines

2 doom rockets

1 magma cannon

Hell cannon to go on one flank

1 Khan on wolf to be cheap fast cav.

The rest will be fast stuff to sweep one flank:

Destroyer

3 Bull Centaurs

lvl 4 on something

Now, originally I was going to use a lvl 4 on Bale Taurus and go with Lore of Fire. The idea would be that it is hard to kill the guy and I will probably get at least one of the augment fire spells to heal the big guy. They would be nasty in combat and smash anything weak on the flanks! Especially with the other guys backing them up. A cannon would have to wound on a 3+ and then do 5-6 wounds to kill the guy.

Now, I keep hearing how people like the Lore of Hashut. It does look cool, but it’s short range. Now, I was thinking that the best method to use it would be to stick him on a Lammasu with Shadow magic. I would basically hover on the edges of big units and blast them with spells. Even the Hammer of Hashut is good at this! Hobgoblins with Hatred hitting weakened units (shadow magic) will even kill quite a few enemy. The only problem is he would be a bit vulnerable. I would have to use my rockets to knock out anything that can get to him.

Lore of Hashut on Taurus? It seems counter intuitive. Stay close, but not that close spells on a combat beast. Doesn’t seem to work. Fire? Well, it would be cheaper, but not as survivable. Cannons can kill it in one shot easier.

2

Samanos:

people seem to think that for some reason lore of fire on bale taurous is awesome.

we must not forget the fact that first you have to roll for the 2 buffs of the lore, then manage to cast them and then your opponent mus not dispell.

im not saying its a bad idea, but i believe we can do without it.

hashout on bale seems nice as well due to the short range of the lore, but so does death!

personally i love death on a sorcere, much more than hashut actually.

the only real way i guess is to try them out and see what works est for you.

3

metro_gnome:

I’m just not impressed enough by the bale taurus to fork over the 80 extra points…
The great taurus is excellent value for a mobile protective spell platform… and can be just as survivable…
If I was after a Bale I’d take Drazhoath… His Bale Taurus +1 works out to the cost of a nekkid Lammasu…
For a Lammasu though Lvl 4 Death + Lvl 2 Shadow seems like a nasty combo for all kinds of tricks… 'spensive tho…

4

Groznit Goregut:

When I look at a Bale Taurus and Fire Wizard, I don’t see a mobile spell platform. I see a combat machine!

The lvl 4 has a base AS of 3+ (+1 for mount) before you add even a shield. That’s pretty tough. He’s also WS 5 and T 5. those can be augmented with magic items and ward saves. He gets 3 attacks at S4 and has a magic weapon that can be quite effective. I wouldn’t treat this guy with kid gloves.

Bale Taurus is S6 and T6 and 4 attacks, plus Thunder Stomp. With his special rule, that means anything with S4 or less can’t even wound him and S5 only on a 6! This guy is going to be a cannon magnet, so the W5 is much better and has a greater chance of keeping him alive long enough to heal him with Fire magic.

This guy is tougher than an Orc Warlord on a wyvern by combat prowess alone. Sure, he’s more points, but he is also a lvl 4 wizard and can be chock full of magic items and Blood of Hashut. I don’t mean I would plough this guy head long into combat with anything. I plan on being smart about it. If I pick my battles, I can see this guy being hard to kill and incredibly effective.

I see going with a solid infantry middle backed by war machines and having a “hook” of fast and hard hitting units. That’s this guy, the Destroyer, and the Bull Centaurs. Sure, something might not be a good match up for one of those, but all three of them can take down almost anything.

Sure, I will have to roll up at least one of the two buff spells, but if I take a lvl 1 or 2 in Fire as my demonsmith, it will help eat up any of the non-buffs first (and trade out for sig if I get it). Yes, I would have to also get the spell off, but there are ways of dealing with it. Maybe the Chalice of Blood and Darkness would be a good item to have, as well?

From what I see, I don’t see either Taurus as a good mobile spell platform. Maybe I’m missing something, though…

5

metro_gnome:

yeah… I think we have different definitions of “combat machine”…

sure your wizard is survivable… but he has next to no melee damage output…

and you probably won’t dress him up with a magic weapon… cause of his dark forged (which are pretty meh)…

I mean 3x S4 attacks? that’s a Castellan’s melee stats… Sure if the correct combat is chosen (and it can be)…

you can do quite well especially with flame cloak or sword… but thats the same with the Great Taurus Prophet…

The great taurus shares the exact same melee stats and abilities… and only lacks the breath weapon… and 80 points…

With a level 4 wizard (particularly a fire one) spells is where the damage will come from…

and therefore combat is not the place for the expensive part of this equation…

I think you are incorrect to compare your prophet to a Warboss on Wyvren…

He’s more like a Orc Shaman on Wyvren… and that is a different animal…

and you are paying a great deal more for a couple of pips of AS and some attacks…

Shaman doesn’t need the attacks… but its great the prophet has them…

but in an opportunistic sort of way… not in a “Waaaghh! Charge!” sort of way…

and wouldn’t you pay 55 less point for your wyvren if you could?

you should play to the unit’s strength… and that is mobility, durability and (with fire) range…

none of that screams “get me dug in ASAP”… not as far as I’m concerned…

It screams “lets cause some flaming terror on the flanks and wait to flank charge a unit out of position”…

Which the Great Taurus can do just as well… and then your missing flame breath can be a death shrieker…

6

Groznit Goregut:

yeah... I think we have different definitions of "combat machine"...
sure your wizard is survivable... but he has next to no melee damage output...

metro_gnome
I'll admit that he's not a real combat beast, but you are saying he has the same combat output as a combat hero of the same race. His Darkforge weapon can give him:
-S3 Breathweapon that will do 2d5 hits in combat
-Eternal Hatred for him and his mount
-Multi Wound d3
-Wound anything on a 2+

The best part is when the Taurus is considered the real combat power. The Prophet on top is just kind of an added bonus! He's very survivable and can actually dish out some decent attacks. The Taurus will give you the 4 S6 attacks, Blazing Body hits, 2d6 S6 Breath Weapon hits, and Thunderstomp. Oh, and don't discount Terror, especially on the flanks. If my Prophet is "merely" survivable, then that's great with me.
The great taurus shares the exact same melee stats and abilities... and only lacks the breath weapon... and 80 points...

metro_gnome
Actually, the Bale Taurus is T6 instead of T5. This means that anyone with S4 or less just can't wound the Taurus at all. S5 will only wound on a 6. Besides cannons, there are also Spear Chukkas, Doom Divers, and a host of other things that are S6 or so that will still only wound on a 5+. If you are getting this guy in combat, and you pick a weak unit, you can run amok. Anything in combat will have a hard time battling this guy. If you are going to get him into combat (like I want to), then I don't see a lot able to actually wound the Bale Taurus. I'd say the extra points are worth it.

I also say the Breath Weapon is worth it. I don't see many places where the breath template is better than waiting till you are in combat. 2d6 at full strength is superior to me. Add that to Thunder Stomp and you can seriously deplete an enemy unit, even a tough one! S6 is awesome. The Breath Weapon can really win you that important combat. Imagine hitting an enemy unit in the flank while they are fighting some Hobgoblin units to the front. You smack them down so that they aren't Steadfast and I don't see them sticking around.
With a level 4 wizard (particularly a fire one) spells is where the damage will come from...
and therefore combat is not the place for the expensive part of this equation...

metro_gnome
There are only 2 spells from Fire that can't be cast from combat. The Sig. spell and Piercing Bolts. The rest of them can be cast from combat and I can even see Burning Head be worth it when fighting a ranked unit or someone from the flanks. Hitting an enemy horde from the flanks and then using this spell can be pretty good. Fire-cloak and Flaming Sword are the good buffs that will also heal your Taurus. Flame Cage can be used on an enemy unit that you then issue a challenge. If they accept and move to be facing you, the unit gets hit! Fantastic. I might actually cast Flame Storm on a unit I am in combat with. If it scatters on me, I can heal the Taurus! Fireball can also be used to clear out chaff units, as well. Blast that unit of dogs or wolf riders to allow your fast hook to get into their flanks. I think that most people use Fire just to get Fireball and blast from a distance, but the whole Lore is more than that.

When I look at Lore of Hashut, it's very short range and you don't want to cast it in combat. That lore is much more limited to being out of combat than Fire in my point of view. I don't see taking Lore of Hashut and being on a Taurus at all. I'd go for Lammasu.
you should play to the unit's strength... and that is mobility, durability and (with fire) range...
none of that screams "get me dug in ASAP"... not as far as I'm concerned...
It screams "lets cause some flaming terror on the flanks and wait to flank charge a unit out of position"...
Which the Great Taurus can do just as well... and then your missing flame breath can be a death shrieker...

metro_gnome
I don't see the Prophet of Fire on a Bale Taurus as "get me dug in ASAP", but I see him as someone who can do a lot more than just hang out on the flanks and shoot Fireball. He can really smash into things and do some damage in combat. I see this guy as either picking out the weak units, getting into threatening positions, or helping out the Destroyer and Bull Centaurs break through a difficult unit on the flank. From that point, all three of them can then threaten the flank of the enemy while my main battle line faces their front. Sure, a K'Daai Destroyer hold a unit up all game, but why not use the Bale Taurus to help smash the unit and then do something else in the game?

I think that a lot of people see the lvl 4 of Fire as a fragile mage that should only shoot spells from the flanks and not engage in combat. I would say that you are wasting a lot of potential there. I think that this guy can do that....AND be a significant combat factor. I see a lot of potential in this guy. I could even see him hitting Mournfangs before they charge something else.
7

metro_gnome:

well I hadn’t thought of firestorm in hopes of hitting myself… but then I hadn’t really thought of firestorm at all…
But I do think there are much better uses for flame cage than this… and I hope you dont get pasted by whatever you challenged…

Personally… for what you want I’d just take Draz…
not only is he a better fighter and Cinderbreath’s S5 breath…
But Hashut is an in your face lore and he’s buckets cheaper…

I’ll still run my Level 3 Fire Prophet on Great Taurus and save these points…
but then I still have BB models that I have to scrounge the points field…
I’ll keep fire storm in mind though… it’s not as bad as i thought…

8

Far2Casual:

Flame Storm is a direct damage spell, which cannot be cast on units in close combat.

9

metro_gnome:

aha… and so would be the case with burning head… I knew i had missed a piece of the puzzle…
in fact Fire (along with Hashut) has actually the least amount of spells (3) that can be cast in CC…
Metal and Death can cast 4 spells… actually what are peoples thoughts on a Metal Battlemage?
and Shadow has the most with 5 spells… but of course a mount that would like to avoid CC like the plague…

The good thing about fire imho… is that it makes your augments useful even if you are not in CC…
which is again another reason why the Firelord would prefer to stay out of it…
that coupled with superior range of Fire (most spells can be pushed all the way to 48")…
and the fact that the higher T and W of the Bale makes him require fire augments less…
would make me suggest Fire for the GT… and Hashut (prolly Draz) or Death for a Bale…
to take advantage of the flame template range, CC skills and greater durability of the Bale…

So to answer the original question… in order of favoritism:
1) FireLord on Great Taurus
2) Drazhoath the Ashen
3) DeathLord on Bale Taurus
4) DeathLord on Lammasu
and the rest don’t score…

10

Groznit Goregut:

Flame Storm is a direct damage spell, which cannot be cast on units in close combat.

Far2Casual
Hmmm.....CAN'T BE CAST INTO COMBAT. I know you can cast Direct Damage if you are in combat, but I guess it's just as long as you don't target a unit in combat. I am thinking of Foot of Gork. I know I can cast it on another unit as long as it's in my field of vision, even if I'm in combat. I guess you can't cast it when you are in combat.

Why is Lore of Hashut good for a combat guy? Half the spells are direct damage, too. I always figured Lore of Hashut would be terrilbe for a combat guy. Great for a "hover around the flanks" guy (hence the Lammasu), but terrible if I wanted to put him on a Taurus (of any type).

I will admit that I was making my list last night and points are SOOOOO tight in a CD list. I can definitely see going with a lvl 3 to save points. Maybe saving those points on a Great Taurus might be worth it, too. Bleh. Just not as invincible....and therefore not as willing to get into combat....and therefore defeating the purpose...
11

zhatan87:

The Taurus will give you the 4 S6 attacks, Blazing Body hits, 2d6 S6 Breath Weapon hits
I believed it was S4 Breath weapon...:o
I guess you can't cast it when you are in combat.
You can cast direct damage spell when you are in combat, but not on a unit in close combat...
12

Groznit Goregut:

I can’t see mounting a Prophet in less than 3000 pts.

13

metro_gnome:

I believed it was S4 Breath weapon...:o

zhatan87
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the thunder stomp...
Why is Lore of Hashut good for a combat guy?  Half the spells are direct damage, too.  I always figured Lore of Hashut would be terrilbe for a combat guy.  Great for a "hover around the flanks" guy (hence the Lammasu), but terrible if I wanted to put him on a Taurus (of any type).

Groznit Goregut
well Hashut isn't really good in combat either... none of the lores are... maybe metal...
but a Hashut lord would be operating inside the range of all manner of S4 shooting...
which as you point out would bounce off a bale like a light rain... a Lammasu operating in this range is in trouble...
sure it can pretty much ignore spells... but will drop to arrows from all sorts of directions...
so it's not that Hashut is good for a combat guy... it's that Hashut is good for a Bale...
I don't really believe there is a combat guy... square peg round hole...
I can't see mounting a Prophet in less than 3000 pts.

Groznit Goregut
I can... but only if you economize and take advantage of the cost efficient aspects of them...
Not just the shiney bits... my mounted lord is actually middle road in terms of army wide expenditure...
at less than 500 points it is only the second most expensive unit in my army...
I'm pretty sure your Bale Lord will be the most expensive thing you will field...
but on that note I find the concept of a prophet on foot to be a little disturbing as well...
I mean with a BSB Block at close to 600 and a prophet block at close to 700...
that's more than half your army tied up in 2 blocks of M3 melee infantry...
or worse one 1000 point unit... I just can't see a way to make that work...
It's too easy to ignore... and once this mammoth unit gets stuck in...
he'll be having the same kind of spell problems as our bale lord...
only with less LoS options for DDs... and still not be any good at combat...

I have an olde habit from the 6th ed days of splitting my armies into roughly 500 point divisions...
currently my largest division is artillery which is coming in at a little less than 600 points...
My second division is an infantry block with sword and board and BSB at few points less...
My third largest division is my Fire Prophet on great Taurus... which is a sort of artillery/cavalry swing...
4th is another infantry block with shooting... and the smallest is a 2 unit cavalry division at 430...

I'm not gonna truly sweat if I lose my prophet anymore than if I lose my bull centaurs...
Because if they get him:
1) He was still hard to take down (unlike the Lammasu)
2) He wasn't easy to ignore (unlike the Prophet block)
3) He wasn't a huge point sink (unlike the level 4 Bale)
4) I've got another 2K that still has to be dealt with
and most likely he will be taking some things with him...
14

Method:

Lvl 4 hashut in a bunker.

That’s how I have been running him, and he has been awesome so far.

(kinda sucks though, cuz i got cool mount models