[Archive] MIssing Thread

Thommy H:

The Sword of Badger would be a really powerful weapon. It’s already in the WoC book, of course, and goes by the name “Berserker Sword”.

Vardan Painkiller:

I am sorry but i have to call hipo here.

From legal point of view there is no difference between quoting a paragraph to prove one is right, and quoting a paragraph because of someone else doesnt know it. So legal reasons shouldnt be called upon when speaking against the latter.

Thommy H:

The key difference is that, if you quote something in a rules debate, it’s much easier to divorce it from its original context and therefore avoid infringing on any IP. For example, GW have no legal ownership of the phrase “roll 2D6 and scatter the template that number of inches from the wizard”, even though it may well be taken verbatim from one of their books. If you quoted the text of the entire (hypothetical) spell though, that would cross the line.

So it’s not exactly the context that matters, more that asking for rules, by definition, treads on IP toes, whereas just talking about rules with fragmented quotes for clarity makes it easy to be clever about exactly what you say.

cornixt:

From legal point of view

Vardan Painkiller
The laws of which countries?

As Thommy says, context is VERY important in law. It's the difference between being jailed for death threats and being praised for comedic ability.

Vardan Painkiller:

I get your point Thommy, quoting too much but, not so long ago i quoted whole paragraph of ASF rule. With issue being whether attacking dragon when rider has greater Initiative than attacking model with ASF will benefit from rerolls. Similarly a person can ask about monster in some book, is it good is it bad, and whats the statline.

Cornixt : any, the same things are the same, IF quoting breaks IP then it breaks it whenever you quote, for whatever reason, if it doesnt then it doesnt whener you quote.

And no quoting doesnt break IP law, if you quote using “…” or ‘…’

Again if you want to enforce any rules please add them to forum rules, and dont argument with “possibility of being illegal somewhere in the world”.

If server is in US just say US law applies, i will read it and then find ways to obey it.

Thommy H:

The statlines of every model in every game are already on the GW website - posting those probably wouldn’t be illegal, or you could at least make a good argument for fair use if it did somehow get as far as a court.

The difference, as others and I have said, is that posting something verbatim in context isn’t so bad. It’s still vaguely dodgy, but since it’s being used by customers of GW to help them enjoy using GW products more, they’re unlikely to make a point of prosecuting any site that hosts posts doing it. However, just asking for rules - which is what the thread in question was doing - is obviously not the same as that. Given that the OP of that thread even explicitly said something along the lines of, “I don’t want to buy a whole book just for two sets of rules”, you can see why it might be different from just quoting the text of a special rule in the midst of a debate.

Really, there’s no definite answer we can give you here. The whole point of IP and copyright laws is that they’re very context-sensitive. Few laws are absolute: if they were, there’d be no need for courts. So you just have to apply a bit of common sense. If you’re quoting GW’s text in a way that means people can use that text instead of buying a GW product, that’s probably not cool. If it’s just to make a point amongst people who all clearly own the relevant product, don’t worry about it.

Vardan Painkiller:

I agree on this context sensitive approach, but, if telling a person in person about special rule from GW book doesnt break IP, then writing it also doesnt.

Imagine a dwarf player asking for K’day blazing body rule- should or should not he be given the answer?

I am genuinly sure that in every country IP is connected with material gain, so if there is no gain or loss there is no IP breach. As far as i can see, in Europe its more common to ban gaining on someones IP and in US its common practice to punish for potential loss- but this loss must be proven. Also US allows quotation for ‘review’ which permits anything we do on this forum as long as we don’t scan pages of a book and post it here 1 by 1.

Also it takes less than 3 minutes to download tamurkhan scan or any other wfb/40k book if u use google search. Free.

Thommy H:

Speaking is, legally, not the same thing as writing something down, for the simple reason that one can be reproduced at any time and one can’t. That’s why slander and libel are different offences.

But what point are you trying to make here? Are you expecting this website’s rules to be changed because you’ve made some argument about legal wrangling? You’ve been told the rule, and why it’s enforced in the manner that it is. The fact that the actual law is easy to break because copyright materials are easily accessible through illegal means is also a moot point.

snowblizz:

But what point are you trying to make here? Are you expecting this website's rules to be changed because you've made some argument about legal wrangling? You've been told the rule, and why it's enforced in the manner that it is.

Thommy H
The point is that it ISN'T a rule. It is not listed among the forum's rules. It just something you get called on when you do, but you wouldn't know it sin't OK in the first place.

I'll repeat. Can't we actually put it into the rules? Why is adding these two lines, or some modified version to the existing rules, few as they are such a problem? Then we can say, don't do it is in the rules. Instead as now it's forbidden but no one actually knows it until they break the rule.
-Please do not ask for complete rules on the forum.
-Rules can be quoted, in brief, in a relevant context, e.g. discussing specific wordings.

I normally wouldn't quote verbatim, simply because it's too bothersome to type it out anyway.

Vardan Painkiller:

Let me put it more straight, as i was beating around the bush for way too long.

Moderators, admins, whoever are not doing their job if they enforce NONEXISTING RULES.

By joining this forum i agreed to certain rules because they seem fair. Now i genuinly dont care about IP bigotry and i have serious issues calling some stances in a different way. I DO appreciate running the great and very positive forum but i DONT belive that overzealous moderators should “protect” GW IP. I truly sorry to say it so plainly but i do belive it is not fair to stomp on people asking questions!

I have an impression that some of you guys are running a weird crusade in defence of a company’s IP. I am not sure you have noticed but you in your heads allow quoting rules to prove a point to any extent but you punish a guy who can’t afford a book! And this is sick. I am appalled by this situation, if forum host house rules that clearly use GW IP noone has moral right to tell a guy not to ask about information in the book he doesnt own. I mean how dare you- is it so easy to be so elitist over the internet?

So this is a formal complaint , change the forum rules but be fair about it , say it up front and please have enough distance to oneself to see the reason, is it either real IP-suit-threat or is it only selfrighteusness to tell others to buy books or shut up.

I am sorry i was so blunt but noone seemed to get what i was saying more gently.

Respectfully

Vardan Painkiller

Thommy H:

We already told you: this site has been contacted by GW already for IP violations over use of trademarked artwork. If the staff are being zealous, it’s because this is a genuine threat to the continued existence of CDO. Whether we agree with the law or not is irrelevant - GW can and will shut us down if they’re not careful about this.

The thing about not posting or asking for direct rules is a pretty standard one on GW fansites anyway, isn’t it? Warseer are super-stringent about it, I know that. Is anyone that bothered by this? This isn’t a place for getting hold of copyrighted material. If you want the rules for free, go and do it somewhere else, somewhere that doesn’t have a reputation as one of the biggest and best army-specific Warhammer forums online.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Vardan Painkiller - As has been explained on multiple occassions, it is not something we have stated by choice and it has been stated so many times and is such a standard rule and, conveniently, a law in almost all of the countries represented that it’s not worth the hassle.

In plain English, it is a common fact of Internet forums and we have politely requested you avoid it. That is for the wellbeing of the website.

Your accusations are both unfounded, strange to have come up and a little bizarre - we have been selected as staff because we are aware of how we have to tiptoe around GW to keep the website safe and how to keep it well.

The rule in question is mentioned in the rules page because it comes under the legal issues section. As for the debate on when it is and isn’t legal to state the rules etc, that’s irrelevant - if GW pursue us on that front, we have no way to defend it right or wrong, and thsuly we choose to avoid the matter. This has been explained numerous times and this discussion is beginning to go round in circles now.

We do not defend GW’s copywrite in the slightest, it is not our job and they haven’t employed us to do so. We aim to avoid there being a breach of copywrite etc (including GW’s) because it will mean the website can continue.

As a parting note, the issue came up because somebody specifically stated (in different words) “What are the rules for x and y? I want to know them without spending the money for them.”, which is costing GW money and gives them cause to come down on us. With another cease and desist letter that we couldn’t contend with. Plainly, do not share materials at cost to any company on here and we’ll have no problem. If you decide to obtain them without paying elsewhere on the Internet and it doesn’t affect us, we have no jurisdiction on the matter and, ultimately, since it doesn’t affect us, no opinion either.

cornixt:

but i DONT belive that overzealous moderators should "protect" GW IP.

Vardan Painkiller
Who said that was the aim?
I truly sorry to say it so plainly but i do belive it is not fair to stomp on people asking questions!

Vardan Painkiller
When did that ever happen?
I have an impression that some of you guys are running a weird crusade in defence of a company's IP.

Vardan Painkiller
I have no idea where you got that impression, some quotes please. I think everyone was saying "We don't want to be sued" rather than "The great GW doesn't deserve it".
I am not sure you have noticed but you in your heads allow quoting rules to prove a point to any extent but you punish a guy who can't afford a book!

Vardan Painkiller
No one was punished, we just closed the thread and told them not to do it again and not even in a harsh way). They didn't even get an official warning or anything.
And this is sick. I am appalled by this situation, if forum host house rules that clearly use GW IP noone has moral right to tell a guy  not to ask about information in the book he doesnt own. I mean how dare you- is it so easy to be so elitist over the internet?  

Vardan Painkiller
Now that part was just plain weird
So this is a formal complaint , change the forum rules

Vardan Painkiller
I've done it.
but be fair about it , say it up front and please have enough distance to oneself to see the reason, is it either real IP-suit-threat or is it only selfrighteusness to tell others to buy books or shut up.

Vardan Painkiller
Nah, just made it a rule. We don't have to give reasons, and it saves people making overlong threads about why those reasons are wrong.
I am sorry i was so blunt but noone seemed to get what i was saying more gently.

Respectfully
Vardan Painkiller

Vardan Painkiller
You were kind of on your own there, except for Snowblizz who supported it being in the forum rules.

Bolg:

I must admit every time I see a new reply in this topic I get a bit exited: more internet sillyness.

And then I think, there will be people here that find this all very annoying. and that takes a way a lot of the fun.

@Vardan Painkiller: Like I said I think this is all very funny, but I dont get why you keep bringing this up, no changes will be made thanx to you and what you are doing just looks like trolling, I dont know you so I have to assume that is not your intention (but it could).

Now this is your most read tread of all you have started so let me ask: is this really what you want to bring to this very pleasant community?

And as they say; its all for a good reason, we all like this forum and dont want it to be shut down because of something stupid.

Hashut’s Blessing:

The most poignant part of cornixt’s reply should be the “We have changed the rules”. Not so much we have changed them as we have included an explicit part stating this, which was inferred via the legal grounds section of the rules.

Hopefully, this satisfies you Vardan and this seemingly early-stages of becoming heated discussion can cool down again.

wallacer:

Who cares?

It’s all just ones and zeroes travelling across cables and routers then being illuminated like Christmas tree lights by your computer’s screen.

It’s the weekend, i’m going to have a beer.

Stupid ones and zeroes.

Vardan Painkiller:

As i stated these were my impressions, frome course of action over last few days.

If rules are changed i am fine, in this way we are all standing on the same ground and now everyone one knows what what :slight_smile: thank you for that.

Just last one “but”, if GW contacted you because of artwork use, why you brand quotations?

I am of to 3man teams tourney but they dont allow bear :frowning: , but will write some brief report.

Thank you for all that time you spend on this, hope its for the best.

Thorne:

From legal point of view there is no difference between quoting a paragraph to prove one is right, and quoting a paragraph because of someone else doesnt know it. So legal reasons shouldnt be called upon when speaking against the latter.

Vardan Painkiller
Ignorance is no deffence, Thats why we have moderators, Ignorance is something that you no longer have. Have a nice day

Vardan Painkiller:

I am sorry Thorne but i dont get you, i never claimed ignorance.