[Archive] Monstrous Arcanum: Newer Destroyer

Archive [Archive] Tactics, Strategy & Battle Reports
1

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Got the new Monstrous Arcanum book today. So many cool monsters, so much overpriced/underpriced insanity, so little time…

Anyway, as it may surprise no one, the K’Daai Destroyer is easily the best monster in there. The regular mini-K’Daai are unchanged from Tamurkhan (so no surprises, they’re just usable in other armies now as per SoM). What is interesting is they have given the Destroyer a number of options, ranging from cheap and ‘meh’ to downright insane but expensive. They’re all 0-1 options too, so no combos sadly.

The first upgrade just gives you some random impact hits, cheap and cheerful.
The second upgrade is actually cheaper, and it just generates some extra low Strength hits on enemy units if they flub their rolls to hit when hacking at you. Again, meh, it’s cheap and doesn’t do much.
Then with the third upgrade, things go a bit wonky. There is a new rule for MA for the truly massive beasties, called ‘Colossal Beast’, which is what this upgrade grants. This upgrade is highly expensive, but it essentially makes the Destroyer even more broken than before. I’ll get to why in a minute.
The final and fourth upgrade option is slightly cheaper than this third one, and lets you fly around breathing fire on people. Amusing, but Destroyers are M9 already so not 100% needed.

So, what happens when you give it the ‘Colossal Beast’ upgrade? Well, picture this;
- Colossal Beast says that you can’t be one-shotted by nuke spells or other such ‘one test or die’ abilities; you instead take a random number of wounds. This is perfect for us, as we have a strong ward save to shrug it off, and multiple wounds to soak the damage if we fail.
- As per the Tamurkhan FAQ, if the enemy attack needs a 6 to wound you, and you inflict -1 to all non-magic to wound rolls, then it auto-fails. So, at minimum (if the attack isn’t magical), you need S5 to wound the Destroyer, and even then it’s on a 6.
- On top of that, no attack can wound you on better than a 3+ (due to the upgrade). Add on your -1 to wound (again, only for non-magical), we can only be wounded on a 4+ by mundane attacks of at least S7 or higher.
- Add on that we have our strong ward save, and you are basically impossible to kill with cannons, or indeed most non-magic ranged attacks. Even if it is a runed Dwarven cannon (amusingly if they took the Flame rune, you get your ward save boosted), it still fails on a 1 or 2 roll to wound, and you still get your save.

So, what can actually kill him?
- In close-combat, you need I6 or ASF (if he gets his attacks in first, plus the auto S4 flame hits, you’re already losing, and that is before the boosted Thunderstomp due to Colossal Beast), and Mindrazor or some other way of getting S7. Magical attacks would be preferable, Lore of Metal is good in this regard, as it makes the S7+ attacks you have actually wound somewhat reliably.
- At range, ‘Banishment’ from Lore of Light requires two other Light casters to boost it to S6 (so three Light Wizards in total, not impossible for Empire or High Elves), but assuming it is boosted to S6, on average inflicts 4 unsaved wounds (due to the re-rolls to your ward save, which is huge). The new Empire Laser Cannons can also cause you problems, as they re-roll to wound on a 3+ (due to Daemon status) and they commonly bring two, up to 3 if need be. They can and will break your ward save, especially if you’ve already suffered a ‘Banishment’ torrenting already.

That is pretty much it. Regular warmachines just can’t wound him reliably at all, arrow or even crossbow spam can’t hurt him (literally), and most combat blocks don’t have the hitting power without spell boosts to cause wounds at all.

So yeah, be aware of this guys. Not only do Chaos Dwarves get this insanity, but everyone can now take it in a Storm of Magic game.

edit: Nearly forgot, watch out for this move:

Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem+Other Trickster’s Shard+Giant Blade: They put it on a multi-wound character, charge in and tie you up all game whilst wailing on you with magical high Strength attacks and forcing re-rolls to your ward. It might take a while (depending on how many attacks the character has), but he’s functionally invulnerable to you and you meanwhile will lose wounds.

2

Baggronor:

Its a good thing the upgrades are SoM only :slight_smile: SoM games are supposed to be ridiculous so I’m fine with that.

Poison is what kills him. And ethereals can tie him up. A Terrorgheist’s scream also has a good shot at damaging him.

The final and fourth upgrade option is slightly cheaper than this third one, and lets you fly around breathing fire on people. Amusing, but Destroyers are M9 already so not 100% needed.
This is actually the most powerful one. It means he can’t get diverted by chaff so easily anymore as he can charge over them at a better target. That boosts him from Really Hard to Actually Broken.

3

Thommy H:

Yeah, the enhanced Destroyer is for SoM games only, so he can be zapped with Cataclysm Spells and, more importantly, both sides can take one.

4

KramDratta:

edit: Nearly forgot, watch out for this move:

Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem+Other Trickster's Shard+Giant Blade: They put it on a multi-wound character, charge in and tie you up all game whilst wailing on you with magical high Strength attacks and forcing re-rolls to your ward. It might take a while (depending on how many attacks the character has), but he's functionally invulnerable to you and you meanwhile will lose wounds.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
One thing that people forget is that Thunderstomp does not benefit from Special Rules, which include .... Flaming Attacks. So that Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem won't protect the character unless he's mounted. Just thought I should put that in.
5

Bitterman:

- On top of that, no attack can wound you on better than a 3+ (due to the upgrade). Add on your -1 to wound (again, only for non-magical), we can only be wounded on a 4+ by mundane attacks of at least S7 or higher.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
I've not seen the wording of the rule, but are you sure you have this right?

Say the Destroyer is hit by a cannonball. S10 wounds on a 2+, the Destroyer's -1 makes that a 3+... and the upgrade has no effect.

It sounds like you're saying the S10 wounds on a 2+, the upgrade makes that a 3+, and the Destroyer's -1 makes that a 4+.

I'm not saying you're wrong as I've not read the book, but have you considered it might work the former way rather than the latter?

Apart from that, same as what others have said: Storm of Magic is fundamentally "crazy" anyway. Anything that justifies Teclis summoning a Bloodthirster is plain "crazy", there's no two ways about it. If SoM makes Destroyers ridiculously dirty, that's not unfair/broken, because your opponent is equally entitled to take one - it's just "crazy", like everything else in SoM. (Feel free to mentally substitute the word "crazy" for "stupid", which is what I think it is. SoM appeals to me not at all. But for those who do want to play it, and don't consider it stupid: well, that's what you're playing, so, that's what you get).
6

Thommy H:

It’s important that games of toy soldiers aren’t stupid or crazy.

7

Bitterman:

Edit: whatever.

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

8

Thommy H:

Bitterman is right about how that part of the Colossal Beast rule works though: it doesn’t modify the roll To Wound unless it’s better than 3+ - and that would come after any modifiers for Blazing Body. You work out the result you need and, if it’s 2+, it instead becomes 3+. That’s all it is.

9

Bolg:

One thing that people forget is that Thunderstomp does not benefit from Special Rules, which include .... Flaming Attacks. So that Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem won't protect the character unless he's mounted. Just thought I should put that in.

KramDratta
Thanx for pointing that out. this info will come in in handy someday (:
10

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Poison is what kills him. And ethereals can tie him up. A Terrorgheist's scream also has a good shot at damaging him.
Poison has to be spammed a lot, he still has a heap of wounds and a 4+ ward. And it's unlikely you'll kill him before he hits.
Ethereals maybe, but given this is Storm of Magic, the amount of spell deal rolling around will probably kill them before they become an issue. Amusing if you get some Cairn Wraiths locked in combat with the Destroyer though.
Yeah, the enhanced Destroyer is for SoM games only, so he can be zapped with Cataclysm Spells and, more importantly, both sides can take one.
No he can't, as I mentioned before nuke magic doesn't work, it only inflicts a random number of wounds (which he can save against). Assuming you take 'Dark Colossus' as an upgrade.
It's true both sides have access to one, but Chaos Dwarves can also get the same guy (minus the upgrade options) in their regular force. If both sides bring one they do cancel eachother out, neither is likely to break the other's save (and they can't Thunderstomp eachother either).
One thing that people forget is that Thunderstomp does not benefit from Special Rules, which include .... Flaming Attacks. So that Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem won't protect the character unless he's mounted. Just thought I should put that in.
Oooh...so yeah, it looks like Ethereals (which can be magic zapped, and also casting the magic blades spell from Fire or Metal gives him magic attacks) are just about the only thing aside from another Destroyer that can tarpit him.
Say the Destroyer is hit by a cannonball. S10 wounds on a 2+, the Destroyer's -1 makes that a 3+... and the upgrade has no effect.
No, because modifiers are cumulative in Fantasy. If they weren't, no rules would stack.
So, first of all, due to the Colossal Beast rule, the cannonball goes down to a 3+, as it wound normally wound on a 2+ (S10 versus T6).
Then, the hit suffers a further -1 to wound. So say you do roll a 3, it becomes a 2 and thus fails. You would have to roll a 4+, getting reduced to a 3, which is still a successful wound.

edit: I think it does require FAQ clarification, and I do think it is a bit OP if my reading is correct. Could be wrong, but yeah, wait for the FAQ (there are a lot of other confusing issues in the MA book besides this one, believe me).
11

Thommy H:

I think if it worked that way, it would say. I think you work out the roll required To Wound first (subject to Blazing Body) and then if it’s 2+ after that, it goes down to 3+. That’s the most intuitive reading of the rule for me - remember that it’s not a modifier exactly, just a specific condition. And, if there’s any confusion over which order things are done in, the player who’s turn it is decides anyway - more often than not, this will be in your opponent’s turn, so which do you think they’ll pick?

If in doubt, assume good faith and resolve it in the way that doesn’t ruin the game. These are FW rules for SoM - you may need to think outside the box a bit.

12

Hashut’s Blessing:

The rule is that anything better than a 2+ still needs a 3+ to wound. A cannonball is a -1 to wound, so needs a 3+ to wound and thusly isn;t subject to being better than 3+ to wound.

Regardless, the MA one is easy as all heck to take out - every wizard in SoM has Unbind Monster, cast on 3+…

13

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Got the new Monstrous Arcanum book today. So many cool monsters, so much overpriced/underpriced insanity, so little time…

Anyway, as it may surprise no one, the K’Daai Destroyer is easily the best monster in there. The regular mini-K’Daai are unchanged from Tamurkhan (so no surprises, they’re just usable in other armies now as per SoM). What is interesting is they have given the Destroyer a number of options, ranging from cheap and ‘meh’ to downright insane but expensive. They’re all 0-1 options too, so no combos sadly.

The first upgrade just gives you some random impact hits, cheap and cheerful.
The second upgrade is actually cheaper, and it just generates some extra low Strength hits on enemy units if they flub their rolls to hit when hacking at you. Again, meh, it’s cheap and doesn’t do much.
Then with the third upgrade, things go a bit wonky. There is a new rule for MA for the truly massive beasties, called ‘Colossal Beast’, which is what this upgrade grants. This upgrade is highly expensive, but it essentially makes the Destroyer even more broken than before. I’ll get to why in a minute.
The final and fourth upgrade option is slightly cheaper than this third one, and lets you fly around breathing fire on people. Amusing, but Destroyers are M9 already so not 100% needed.

So, what happens when you give it the ‘Colossal Beast’ upgrade? Well, picture this;
- Colossal Beast says that you can’t be one-shotted by nuke spells or other such ‘one test or die’ abilities; you instead take a random number of wounds. This is perfect for us, as we have a strong ward save to shrug it off, and multiple wounds to soak the damage if we fail.
- As per the Tamurkhan FAQ, if the enemy attack needs a 6 to wound you, and you inflict -1 to all non-magic to wound rolls, then it auto-fails. So, at minimum (if the attack isn’t magical), you need S5 to wound the Destroyer, and even then it’s on a 6.
- On top of that, no attack can wound you on better than a 3+ (due to the upgrade). Add on your -1 to wound (again, only for non-magical), we can only be wounded on a 4+ by mundane attacks of at least S7 or higher.
- Add on that we have our strong ward save, and you are basically impossible to kill with cannons, or indeed most non-magic ranged attacks. Even if it is a runed Dwarven cannon (amusingly if they took the Flame rune, you get your ward save boosted), it still fails on a 1 or 2 roll to wound, and you still get your save.

So, what can actually kill him?
- In close-combat, you need I6 or ASF (if he gets his attacks in first, plus the auto S4 flame hits, you’re already losing, and that is before the boosted Thunderstomp due to Colossal Beast), and Mindrazor or some other way of getting S7. Magical attacks would be preferable, Lore of Metal is good in this regard, as it makes the S7+ attacks you have actually wound somewhat reliably.
- At range, ‘Banishment’ from Lore of Light requires two other Light casters to boost it to S6 (so three Light Wizards in total, not impossible for Empire or High Elves), but assuming it is boosted to S6, on average inflicts 4 unsaved wounds (due to the re-rolls to your ward save, which is huge). The new Empire Laser Cannons can also cause you problems, as they re-roll to wound on a 3+ (due to Daemon status) and they commonly bring two, up to 3 if need be. They can and will break your ward save, especially if you’ve already suffered a ‘Banishment’ torrenting already.

That is pretty much it. Regular warmachines just can’t wound him reliably at all, arrow or even crossbow spam can’t hurt him (literally), and most combat blocks don’t have the hitting power without spell boosts to cause wounds at all.

So yeah, be aware of this guys. Not only do Chaos Dwarves get this insanity, but everyone can now take it in a Storm of Magic game.

edit: Nearly forgot, watch out for this move:

Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem+Other Trickster’s Shard+Giant Blade: They put it on a multi-wound character, charge in and tie you up all game whilst wailing on you with magical high Strength attacks and forcing re-rolls to your ward. It might take a while (depending on how many attacks the character has), but he’s functionally invulnerable to you and you meanwhile will lose wounds.

14

Baggronor:

Its a good thing the upgrades are SoM only :slight_smile: SoM games are supposed to be ridiculous so I’m fine with that.

Poison is what kills him. And ethereals can tie him up. A Terrorgheist’s scream also has a good shot at damaging him.

The final and fourth upgrade option is slightly cheaper than this third one, and lets you fly around breathing fire on people. Amusing, but Destroyers are M9 already so not 100% needed.
This is actually the most powerful one. It means he can’t get diverted by chaff so easily anymore as he can charge over them at a better target. That boosts him from Really Hard to Actually Broken.

15

Thommy H:

Yeah, the enhanced Destroyer is for SoM games only, so he can be zapped with Cataclysm Spells and, more importantly, both sides can take one.

16

KramDratta:

edit: Nearly forgot, watch out for this move:

Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem+Other Trickster's Shard+Giant Blade: They put it on a multi-wound character, charge in and tie you up all game whilst wailing on you with magical high Strength attacks and forcing re-rolls to your ward. It might take a while (depending on how many attacks the character has), but he's functionally invulnerable to you and you meanwhile will lose wounds.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
One thing that people forget is that Thunderstomp does not benefit from Special Rules, which include .... Flaming Attacks. So that Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem won't protect the character unless he's mounted. Just thought I should put that in.
17

Bitterman:

- On top of that, no attack can wound you on better than a 3+ (due to the upgrade). Add on your -1 to wound (again, only for non-magical), we can only be wounded on a 4+ by mundane attacks of at least S7 or higher.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
I've not seen the wording of the rule, but are you sure you have this right?

Say the Destroyer is hit by a cannonball. S10 wounds on a 2+, the Destroyer's -1 makes that a 3+... and the upgrade has no effect.

It sounds like you're saying the S10 wounds on a 2+, the upgrade makes that a 3+, and the Destroyer's -1 makes that a 4+.

I'm not saying you're wrong as I've not read the book, but have you considered it might work the former way rather than the latter?

Apart from that, same as what others have said: Storm of Magic is fundamentally "crazy" anyway. Anything that justifies Teclis summoning a Bloodthirster is plain "crazy", there's no two ways about it. If SoM makes Destroyers ridiculously dirty, that's not unfair/broken, because your opponent is equally entitled to take one - it's just "crazy", like everything else in SoM. (Feel free to mentally substitute the word "crazy" for "stupid", which is what I think it is. SoM appeals to me not at all. But for those who do want to play it, and don't consider it stupid: well, that's what you're playing, so, that's what you get).
18

Thommy H:

It’s important that games of toy soldiers aren’t stupid or crazy.

19

Bitterman:

Edit: whatever.

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

20

Thommy H:

Bitterman is right about how that part of the Colossal Beast rule works though: it doesn’t modify the roll To Wound unless it’s better than 3+ - and that would come after any modifiers for Blazing Body. You work out the result you need and, if it’s 2+, it instead becomes 3+. That’s all it is.